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    Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    Let me preface my question by saying that I've not done a lot of work trying to solve this problem on my own and hope that an answer here can save me time by pointing out the right direction.

    A brief history: I agreed to help someone clean up a Word document which was created by a volunteer transcribing 150 years worth of meeting minutes of the board of directors of a local library. The document contains about 1300 pages, spans two versions of Word (2003 and 2007) and two filetypes (doc and docx), has several changes in format as the work proceeded, and numerous splitting & merging of the files comprising this effort. Currently the work is in two files, which were created by the volunteer merging (somehow) numerous files.

    My current problem in the cleanup effort is pagination. Each of the two files has page numbers that are completely messed up - some pages have no numbers, there are duplicated page numbers, etc... It appears that some of the problems (maybe all) occur at section breaks - the volunteer did not know she had any section breaks and did not intentionally create them, though she did switch column numbers on a page frequently. So the question is what approach should I take in trying to get a continuous sequence of page numbers in this document having a complex creation history?

    Paul

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    I cannot say that I have ever worked on a document soooo long before so let me just give you my train of thinking and hope its something you have not yet tried...

    Lets start with the first of the two files:
    Open Headers and footers and delete the page numbers
    Then re-insert page numbers
    (I am hoping that none of the section breaks have "Same as previous" de-activated...else you may need some automation to remove numbers in these areas.

    Do the same in the second doc except that when you insert page numbers you chose Start at: and you type the number where the second docs page numbers start.

    Just my <img src=/S/2cents.gif border=0 alt=2cents width=15 height=15>
    Regards,
    Rudi

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    If some pages have no page numbers, others one and yet others two page numbers, it's almost certain that "Same as previous" has been de-activated. If it hadn't, all sections would have the same headers and footers.
    Also check for "Different first page" and "Different odd and even" in the Layout tab of File | Page Setup. This can be set for each section individually.

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    There are two ways to insert page numbers in Word--through the insert menu and through the header /footer toolbar; and newbies sometimes use both. A page number field inserted through the insert menu is inside a frame; the one inserted through header/footer toolbar is not. And you can have both on the same page.

    First I would search for and delete all page fields within frames. Then I'd step through each footer and make sure that the footer text is as wanted (including page no.), that the same as previous is appropriate, and that the page break type is correct.

    Good luck,
    Pam Caswell
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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    Thanks Rudi, Hans & Pam.
    You have given me some good things to try. I will let you know how it turns out.

    Paul

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    When cleaning up documents like this, I like to start at the basics. You may not want to go this far depending on how consistent you want your final document to be. I would almost always have a quick look through the document to decide how the person has formatted it.

    If you are in luck and they have used styles (unlikely) then you might just select all and remove any local formatting by pressing Ctrl-Q and Ctrl-Space

    If you are partly in luck, they will have applied some direct formatting to the content and you can use that format to do a search and replace with a defined style. Once done you want to remove any local formatting as above.

    If you are totally out of luck and there is no formatting whatsoever, you need to roll through the document at a reduced magnification and apply styles - at least to the headings

    Next, to get the sections and pagination under control, I would remove ALL section breaks and manual page breaks with search and replace. You can find the characters for these under the Special button in the Find and Replace dialog (replace each with a Paragraph mark - also found under the Special button).

    Next, I would delete all the empty paragraphs by doing a find and replace for two paragraph marks (^p^p) with one paragraph mark ^p
    You might need to repeat this if the document has several empty paragraphs together. If you require spaces between paragraphs (and you should) then this should be done with paragraph spacing in the styles not with double returns.

    Now apply the column formatting and header/footers you want. And tidy up the styles further.
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    Andrew,
    Thanks for the detailed and enlightening procedure. I am pretty much through the first file and expect the second one to go much faster now that I know what to expect.

    The document was created by someone with a lot of energy and patience, though having little knowledge of the ins and out of Word. She also knew enough to ask for help once she could no longer control what the document was doing. I am no Word expert, but maybe the closest thing available to help out. With you guys and gals showing me the direction to take the job is getting done. There are no styles or direct formatting in the original so I am pretty much on a search and destroy and fix mission.

    Thanks again.

    Paul

    PS: the tip to find the formatting characters with the special button is a most useful piece of information

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    I was able to clean up the document in question and get the page numbers continuous. I still do not understand something, however, as additional formatting requested by the author is causing new pagination problems. There are places in the document where the author wants to have two columns for just a portion of the page. This is easily done but the resulting Section Break (continuous) messes up the pagination. The page after the page with the column change will not continue from the previous page number. If I try and format the page number and check "continue from the previous section" it ignores it. This is probably because the previous section does not have a footer as it takes up only a portion of the previous page. I can manually set the page number by checking "start at __" , but this is unacceptable since other changes to the document format in front of this page may change how many pages are in that section. Being a large document this is not an acceptable solution.

    SO I guess the question is: can one have section breaks (continuous) within a page and still have automatic, continuous pagination? In particular, the problem is going from one column to two columns and back to one column all on one page and having the pagination messed up and requiring manual page number resetting.

    Paul

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    There are two possible fixes for this issue.

    1. Avoid section breaks and put the piece of text into a two column table instead. This one would likely be my personal preference as it is simpler to maintain and would avoid the issue completely.

    2. Check the page numbering setting is set to continue across both the section where the two column layout resides AND the subsequent section.
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    Andrew,

    Now there's an idea, change to a 2-column table, I can embrace and probably implement. It's an unusual approach (for me), but should work.
    The page number format settings are both set to "continue from previous section".

    Thanks,
    Paul

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    Perhaps you need to post your document here so we can see why the page numbering is a problem with your section breaks. We would only need to see a chunk which included both section breaks with dummy text in each of the three sections to work out why your page numbers are not continuing across the two breaks.

    I still lean toward the two column table though...
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    I followed your advice and avoided the problem by using two column tables. That worked out fine and the documents are back with the author, though I am sure they will return as she tries to put final touches to them.

    I would like to understand what the problem is with the pagination across sections so this evening when I have some time I will try to prepare a sample document and post it.

    Paul

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    A funny thing happened on the way to the forum: <img src=/S/yikes.gif border=0 alt=yikes width=15 height=15>
    I set about to create a new sample file showing the pagination problem across small section breaks and .... surprise! I was unable to create the problem. This suggests a problem specific to the file which was delivered to me, a problem I was unable to discover and fix. So I took the original file and copied a section from it an pasted it into a new document and I am attaching it to this post. What I am looking for is automatic, continuous pagination starting on the first page.

    Thanks for taking a look.

    Paul
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    The same as previous instruction has no effect if the footers are not the same. The section 2 footer has a return and a page number field in a frame. The section 3 footer has two slightly off center returns but no number field. You can solve your page numbering problem--at least until the next different footer--by copying the section 2 footer into the section 3's or just by inserting the page number field into section 3.
    I'm not sure that it could cause numbering problems, but there is an extra continuous section break on page 2. It could be deleted and replaced by a regular page break.

    Pam
    Pam Caswell

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    Re: Pagination Problem (2003 and 2007)

    Your document doesn't show a page numbering continuation problem but rather a "same as previous" problem. It also shows a couple of other issues which I will also address. There is a lot to digest here so you will need to read it carefully to understand the multiple issues involved here. As you will discover, page numbering can be be very complex but if you can grow to understand the issues then it is easy enough to manage. It is certainly faster to fix than it is to explain - which may be why this kind of knowledge is not often shared.

    As I have harped on earlier, section breaks should be avoided wherever possible because of sideline issues such as the page setup differences between Section 3 and Section 5 - the margins are completely different and there doesn't appear to be any particular reason why you would want this. Your seven page document appears to all be in portrait mode so you can solve these page setup differences across sections by going to File>Page Setup and making sure you change the 'Apply to:' setting to 'Whole document' before changing the margins and pressing OK.

    Another potential issue is the way you have inserted the page numbers in Section 1. This is a problem with the Word user interface - not the user. The problem is that if you use the Insert>Page Numbers method to add page numbers then you get a floating text box on the page. Floating text boxes have their uses but should be avoided wherever possible in much the same way as Section Breaks. The best way to get a page number is to insert it as a field so that it behaves like any other text element. To remove the floating objects which carry your page number, go into the Section 1 footer and click on the page number you see in the middle. A funky little shaded box appears around it. Now click on the edge of that shaded box so that you get black selection handles on the box. Now press the delete key. That removes the floating object.

    Now, you are ready to insert the page number the right way. With your cursor sitting in the footer you should see the Header and Footer toolbar on your screen. The first icon in that toolbar looks like a page with # symbol on it. This inserts the page number field so just click on it. Now the page number will have appeared in your footer on the left side. To centre it you just press Ctrl-E which is simply centre aligning the paragraph.

    Now that you have the page number on Section 1 correct, lets move through the document and check that the 'Same as Previous' is on for every section. The Header and Footer toolbar has a button near the end which points right (it says Show Next if you hover over it). Click this button to see the footer on Section 2. Can you see Same as Previous on the border of the footer. If not find the button which turns this on in the same toolbar (if you hover over it, it says Link to Previous). You should ensure this button is on (depressed) on each of the footers you can see. You will discover that this is not turned on for Section 3. Turn it on.

    Now if you were paying attention as you moved through the footers, you may have noticed that sometimes you skip a section. IF a section has continuous breaks and resides entirely on one page then you won't see its corresponding footer. If you skipped a footer then it may or may not have the ON setting for 'Same as Previous'. If you insert more content into this section so that it spans multiple pages eg put in a couple of page breaks then you can check that footer too. After fixing the footer you simply remove the extra content you added temporarily.

    Your document appears to use Section Breaks when a Page Break would be more apt. Page breaks are far simpler since they don't change the header, footer or page setup. I also saw that you used a manual page break immediately in front of a Continuous Section Break. This appears pointless when you could have used a New Page Section Break instead.
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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