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  1. #1
    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    A company I support has a Word document located on a share drive that certain individuals need to be able to update. It tracks medications for patients, so it is critical for ALL changes to be saved. We just moved the file, along with others, to another server as the original server was on its last legs.
    The people updating this file are now reporting 2 issues:
    1) All changes are being saved locally - no changes are being saved on the original document. This means that nobody can see changes made by anyone else.
    2) They are claiming that prior to the move, they were never prompted to save the document - they would make their changes and just close it.

    Now, I found a thread here that states outright that there is no way to disable the Save prompt - so I have no idea what it is they were really doing to save the document in the past. I've requested detailed information on how they used the document, but I have no idea how detailed, or even helpful, the resulting information will be. they are, by and large, non-technical (perhaps anti-technical would be a more descriptive term) and you can almost hear the switch turning off when you ask them even the simplest computer-related question.

    Be that as it may, the document that is located on the server is in a fully shared directory accessible to all the people who are supposed to be able to update it; they all report the same problem, that when they open the document it appears to be "Read-only" because someone else has it open - you know, when a Word doc is open you see a second copy indicating the opened (and changed) copy as well as the as-yet-unchanged original. At first they were able to save it, but were prompted to do so (which they claim they never had to do in the past), but their changes were not saved to the network (original) copy. Presumably they were saving locally in each case (as yet unconfirmed, but have asked if they have copies of the file in My Documents).

    My primary assumption is that someone opened the file and either got disconnected from the network or at least the share, thus leaving the document in an opened state and blocking all users, including the person who had it open (nobody has fessed up), from accessing it in anything but read-only mode. But I cannot see a second, opened version of the file when I view the directory on the server where the file is located; I'm looking for the obvious, though, and I'm not sure if there might be something else at play here.

    So, there you have it. a network-shared document that several people have full access to, yet nobody can edit & save. I have no idea how it was being saved in the past without prompts - I don't like the concept simply for the fact that blind faith that a document has been saved has no place at work, especially where medications are concerned.
    But the real key is figuring out how to get them to be able to make & save changes to the original.
    Have a cookie -

    Don

  2. #2
    Plutonium Lounger
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    One possibility is that the document was originally attached to a template (on the old server) that has a Document_BeforeClose event procedure in its ThisDocument module:

    Private Sub Document_Close()
    ActiveDocument.Save
    End Sub

    This would cause the document to be saved automatically when it is closed. But since the new server presumably doesn't contain the template, the code doesn't run any more.

    I'd check the setting of "Make local copy of files stored on network or removable drives" in the Save tab of Tools | Options...

    And check for a file with the same name as the document, in the same folder, but with ~$ prefixed. If there is such a file, delete it.

  3. #3
    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    The opened version of the file was there - I only swaw it after I enabled viewing of hidden files (which should have been enabled on the server from day 1).
    It was dated April 9th! So I have no idea when they last changed the file, but the old copy has been deleted.

    And the local copy option was not enabled on the original.

    I'm still waiting for the information I requested from the users, but that could be a while. I don't think they actually like using their computers for anything beyond surfing, at least on Fridays.

    And I may be asking more about that template you mentioned - if it will make them happy. We'll see...
    Have a cookie -

    Don

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    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    Okay, it took the person I emailed 2 1/2 hours to call me and say she would rather call than use email.

    But the magical "close without having to save" is not what they made it out to be. they click on File ... Close from the menu, and it asks if they want to save the file; they click on Yes, and it saves. So yes, technically, theo do not Save, in that they don't use the Save menu option. <img src=/S/beep.gif border=0 alt=beep width=15 height=15>

    But the fact remains that, even after deleting the still-existing temp file from earlier in the year, the file remains read-only. They are able to change the file on one computer only, and those changes are not visible to anybody else viewing the network-based file. So it sounds like this one person is using a copy of the file located on their local hard drive.

    Here is a twist that probably has some bearing on the issue - one I just recalled now. The computers in question are all running Windows XP Home Edition; Home Edition will not connect to a domain, which is where the file is - it will only connect to workgroups. We were able to spoof the domain, or so we thought - by using the domain name as a workgroup we were able to establish connectivity to the domain server and a number of files, including a database, that all the users needed to use. But just how much actual access that connectivity really provides - that I cannot say. Probably not enough, it would seem. All the users in question (4 so far) have been given full access to the share in which all the files are located, via a usergroup created for this purpose. (Server is running Windows Server 2003 Sp2). The company is a non-profit and it is highly doubtful they will spring for copies of XP Pro for even a few computers, let alone new computers for each of these users. Maybe if it proves impossible to get them proper access to these files any other way, but that is likely what it would take to get them to dump XP Home (the comps were donated by Dell as-is).
    The old server where the Word document resided was in the same workgroup as these users before the move - the server itself was scratch-built, from old Compaq components found when they moved into the building a couple years ago. We could not guarantee the age or reliability of the server, which is why we moved the files to a newer server. But the new location is also the domain's Terminal Services server, so adding it to the same workgroup as the users is out of the question, as the domain handles users located all along the East coast.

    So there it is, more background info and a possible monkey wrench in the form of XP Home.
    Have a cookie -

    Don

  5. #5
    Plutonium Lounger
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    I'll have to leave this to those who know more about networking than I do. We may have to move this thread to the Windows XP forum eventually, but I'll leave it here for the moment.

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    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    Update -
    Out of the 4 people who use this particular file, there is one person who has actual Write access to it; everyone else, when they open the file, only has Read access. They all, however, need to be able to update the file. Share permissions on the server are sufficient - not only for the main directory where the file resides, but for every subdirectory in the files's path.

    Once again, I wonder if the use of XP Home on all of the workstations is behind this - previous to moving the file, it was on a server that was in the same workgroup as all the users. Now it is on a domain's Terminal Services server and no longer part of that workgroup. We tried to switch the users to the domain as well but XP Home only accepts Workgroup names, not domains. We tried to spoof the domain where you provide the workgroup name, and were able to get the workstations to see the share where the files are residing; they can even use an Access database on the same server.
    Which makes me wonder, which is the fluke? Accessing the database, or NOT accessing the Word doc?

    I also wonder if it may have something to do with the document being opened on the old server by the one user with write capability, and now that the file is moved to the new server somehow that one user is the only one able to fully access the file. It is quite the long shot, but I am out of ideas otherwise.

    A question, though - when Sharing a folder, I can set up permissions by using the Permissions button or by using the Security tab - what is the difference? (The file had permissions for the special user group we created, but only on the Permissions button and NOT on the Security tab.) I am wondering if adding the same users/groups to both places is required or not. Or recommended.
    Have a cookie -

    Don

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    Super Moderator jscher2000's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    <hr>A question, though - when Sharing a folder, I can set up permissions by using the Permissions button or by using the Security tab - what is the difference? (The file had permissions for the special user group we created, but only on the Permissions button and NOT on the Security tab.) I am wondering if adding the same users/groups to both places is required or not. Or recommended.<hr>
    If I remember my Windows correctly: the Security tab applies to the underlying files regardless of the manner in which they are accessed (e.g., at the server console, via serverd$, or through a share). If the access is through a share, then if there is a conflict between the share permissions and the underlying NTFS perrmissions, Windows always enforces the more restrictive permissions.

  8. #8
    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    Well, I made sure both sets of permissions matched, just to be sure, and it still didn't eliminate the Read Only problem.

    To clarify - when a person opens this file in Word, they get the document name, followed by (Read Only), in the title bar. The one person who is able to edit the document is not the document's creator - I don't think that matters anyway, but in case someone wants to know, there it is.

    One of the users has stated that she was using it (not Read-Only) the day we moved it from the old server to the new server (before the move); the only thing I can think of at this point is to copy the contents of the doc into a new document and delete the old one. They access the doc via its folder, not directly, so presumably they all will be able to edit the new file.
    Have a cookie -

    Don

  9. #9
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    Have you set permissions for the SHARE as well as for the FILE and FOLDERS. To change the permissions on the share you click the Permissions button on the Sharing tab. To change permissions on the file you use the Security tab.

    By default a Windows share has Read permission for Everyone, so even if the files themselves allowed read-write access you would get this behaviour.

    StuartR
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    Go the folder that tis file is in, DELETE all temp files, but make sure you do this when NO ONE is using that folder. You MAY find that a temp file linked to the problem file is locking it and making it READ ONLY for all but the user that the temp file is set for.

    The "Temp" files will be a BIG issue every time some does NOT close a file properly.

    Now running HP Pavilion a6528p, with Win7 64 Bit OS.

  11. #11
    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    - the share, as well as all subdirectories in which the file in question is nested, have the same permissions both with the Permissions button and the Security tab.

    - early on there was a temp file in that directory - dated April 9th - but I deleted that several days ago. The file has been in use by all users since April 9th, though - in fact as recently as October 10th (last Friday).

    My only concern about that possibility is that everything was copied to a new server, and the old server has been dismantled in order to reuse the cage. I don't think, however, that if the file was opened while the old server was still in use, and a disconnect of some kind left the file linked to a particular user, that that situation would have carried over to the new server. Granted, that temp file I deleted must have come from the old server, but then that would have been the only one to have been so copied. And if one of the users had been using the file on the old server after the copy and disconnected from the old server, and then reconnected to the new server - I can't see how the problem could have carried over then, either.

    News flash: The user I mentioned in my last post responded to my last request - I copied the original document into a new Word document and I wanted to see if she could edit THAT one. She cannot even see it! When she follows her link to the share, all she sees is the same old original file. In addition, the user who is able to edit it cannot see any files in that share any more.

    It's time for me to wonder how permissions on a server interact with Windows XP Home. I had noticed that the editing user had her specific userid in the permissionos for the share at a particular level, and none of the others did; they all were added to a new user group we created specifically for this share. I went back later to find that single user permissions entry and duplicate it for all the other users, to see what happened, and I could not locate it. Strange! But that user Is in the user group as well, so theoretically it should not matter...right? But since this is XP Home on all of the users' PCs, all bets may be off. Am I correct in my understanding that XP Home was designed to work with workgroups but NOT with domains?
    Have a cookie -

    Don

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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    "designed to work with workgroups but NOT with domains" YES you are correct.

    There was a trick at one time to just use the domain name in place of the Workgroup but that did NOT always work.
    How have you connected these Home machines to a domain?

    Also remember that there is a 10 machine limit in a Workgroup.

    Now running HP Pavilion a6528p, with Win7 64 Bit OS.

  13. #13
    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    We basically just used the name of the domain and put it where the workgroup name would go.
    A limit of 10 machines? The domain is definitely beyond that limit. If the Home machines are actually detecting the domain, which they appear to be - how would exceeding the workgroup limit affect the workgroup members?
    They appear to see the server, which is on the domain (Terminal Services server) and can actually accessa database located there, and make changes to it that other users can see. But it doesn't seem to be the same with this Word doc.

    What are the odds that switching from XP Home to XP Pro would solve this problem, do you think? The PCs are all from Dell, and they have a number of Dell XP reinstallation disks floating about.
    Have a cookie -

    Don

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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    <P ID="edit" class=small>(Edited by DaveA on 16-Oct-08 09:30. added links)</P>Are all of these problem machines running a "Home" version?
    If so, I think that is the source of your problems.

    Edit
    Using Windows XP Professional on a Network Domain
    Windows XP Home Accessing data on a Domain Server

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    3 Star Lounger djmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Saving Document on Share drive (Word 2003)

    Yes, they're Home Edition. <img src=/S/barf.gif border=0 alt=barf width=64 height=23>

    I reached the conclusion earlier today (why I didn't think of this earlier I don't know) that since the users of the file are all using Home Edition and previously accessed the file via a server also in the workgroup, that thne simplest solution would be to include a separate PC within their workgroup that would act as a server, housing this and other files they might need. Unfortunately there are no spare PCs to be had, so the next best thing is to place it on the PC of one of the workgroup's members and make it accessible to all the members.
    Presumably this is a simple solution and should work. All I have to do is figure out how - another new field for me to fumble around in.
    Have a cookie -

    Don

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