Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    4 Star Lounger pauliez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/14/...opStoryHeadline

    I was always under the impression that icing of a planes wings was a thing of the past, that devises were installed to remove any ice build up so that the shape of the wing was not compromised.

    With all the smarts that our scientist have, they can't come up with a sure fire way of stopping wing icing.

    Or has corporate profits cut into the safety of the passengers again?

    I fly back and forth to San Diego to see my daughters at least three times a year and now for the first time I have brought my three year old granddaughter back for a visit by one of the airlines.

    Maybe when it's time to bring her home I'll really think about using the train to go cross country.(Always wanted to do something like that).

    My condolences to any one who might have lost any one or knows of any one that has lost some one on that flight.
    Catz

  2. #2
    Platinum Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Yilgarn region of Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    5,453
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    >that devices were installed to remove any ice build up

    Me too; I'd have thought that bleeding off some of the exhaust, a narrow tube would do it, would have a very small effect on the flight's ETA, but would heat the wings from the inside sufficiently to melt droplets before they could coalesce, or something like that.

    It's not a choice between arriving 5 minutes late and not arriving at all, is it!

    I suspect that, as usual, it won't be a single cause, but a series of chained events, at least one of which will be human-error.

  3. #3
    Uranium Lounger viking33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    6,308
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    Exhaust bleed IS used on the larger type aircraft but the dash 8 model of that particular ( smaller ) plane does not.
    It supposedly has a "state of the art" deicer system with forward edge boots and trailing edge tabs to move any ice off the wing edges but the preliminary thought is that the slower turbo prop aircraft do not move through the zone of icing fast enough to sometimes prevent hard icing. The faster jets can climb out of the more dangerous zones without hard freezing.
    That is the current explanation now but not the confirmed one.
    BOB
    http://lounge.windowssecrets.com/S/flags/USA.gif http://lounge.windowssecrets.com/S/f...sachusetts.gif


    Long ago, there was a time when men cursed and beat on the ground with sticks. It was called witchcraft.
    Today it is called golf!

  4. #4
    Platinum Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Yilgarn region of Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    5,453
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    >the dash 8 model of that particular ( smaller ) plane does not.
    Doubly annoying since [heresay] the plane is made in Toronto[/heresay], of all places, not unknown for snow, ice, freezing rain, sleet, hail etc.

  5. #5
    Uranium Lounger viking33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    6,308
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    Not hearsay.

    The Bombardier DHC-8-402-Q400 is:
    Bombardier Aerospace, the world's third largest civil airframe manufacturer, is the leader in regional airliners, business jets and amphibious aircraft.
    Headquartered in Montreal, Bombardier Aerospace is an internationally integrated organization with full design and production operations in Montréal (Canadair) and Toronto (de Havilland) in Canada, in Wichita (Learjet) in the United States and Belfast (Shorts) in the United Kingdom, giving it excellent market access and flexibility in program management.

    History

    1970: Bombardier acquires Rotax.

    1986: Bombardier acquires Canadair.

    1988: Bombardier acquires Shorts.

    1990: Bombardier acquires Learjet.

    1992: Bombardier purchases de Havilland Canada from Boeing.
    BOB
    http://lounge.windowssecrets.com/S/flags/USA.gif http://lounge.windowssecrets.com/S/f...sachusetts.gif


    Long ago, there was a time when men cursed and beat on the ground with sticks. It was called witchcraft.
    Today it is called golf!

  6. #6
    Platinum Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Yilgarn region of Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    5,453
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    >Headquartered in Montreal, Bombardier Aerospace ...

    If there's one thing Torontonians will concede, it is that Montreal's snow/ice etc is worse than Toronto's.

  7. #7
    4 Star Lounger pauliez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    The only experience I have with flying is making sure I have a window seat (I love to look down) and what I can remember from the days when I used to build and fly model “all balsa and silk” air planes. (Did I just age myself)?

    I'm only guessing as to what the reason for not having the same type of de-icing on the smaller planes, that is on the larger ones, is because of a problem with not enough space to install such a device.

    If so, then why could not some sort of miniaturization be used, such as the way items are constantly being made smaller in electronics?

    It seems like most new designs are created by (The statement I have heard is "Pushing the envelope").

    Last night I spoke with one of my cousins who live in Buffalo NY and he told me that what happened has most residence in the area horrified.

    The threat of terrorism is still very fresh in the minds of many.

    He also stated that some witnesses claimed that the plane did not fly into the ground but dropped out of the sky like brick.

    I can only guess that when the wings of a plane loose their shape to lift because of ice build up, then the whole plane becomes something brick like.

    Wish I knew and wonder if we will ever really know what the cause of all that loss of life was.
    Catz

  8. #8
    Plutonium Lounger
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    12,107
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    This article doesn't sound too good for the pilot I'm afraid (and maybe even the FAA):

    Pilot error? Plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot in violation of airline policy

  9. #9
    Platinum Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Yilgarn region of Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    5,453
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    >a problem with not enough space to install such a device.
    I know less about aeronautical engineering than I do about building cottages up on Tee-Lake north of Coldwater Ontario, but here goes:

    Weekend-Cottages, up in left-unoccupied-for-eight-months-of-the-year-country, have this insulated electrical cable that snakes along the bottom foot of the roof. Idea is that it draws a very little current (see "eight months" above) and yet offers enough heat to melt ice before it forms an ice-dam, which is, I think, a block of ice that causes later melting ice to back up and fall inside the roof cavity.

    Well, anyway, this amateur is often puzzled as to why such a wire/heating element isn't installed in all the worst places on a wing.

    My basic physics reminds me that at, say, 250 mph there's an awful lot of freezing air rushing past the wing; that is, a plane in flight has a greater carrying-away capacity of energy than a cottage sitting under three pine trees, so the energy requirement is significantly greater.

    At the same time I think of all the energy keeping that plane moving forwards and wonder just how much would have to be bled off (slight drop in speed) or built up (greater consumption of fuel) to provide enough energy to counter the initial buildup of ice.


    I feel more stupid than usual typing this, because let's face it, aeronautical engineers must have considered this by now.
    I mean, it must be one of the regular questions in the AeroEngineering 101 course at every major tech college, no?


    <font color=008080>Let's hear from a professional aeronautical engineer?</font color=008080>

  10. #10
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Confoederatio Helvetica
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    Paul,
    The NTSB seems to be letting little bits of information out as they become known - I wish they would put a news blackout until they had reached some real conclusions. It will take some weeks, more likely months for them to determine exactly what did happen. They are very good and I am confident that they will determine what happened here, meaning that a fix can and will be developed making aviation even safer.

    The latest information indicates that following the lowering of the landing gear, and the flaps the aircraft pitched up over 30 degrees - causing the airspeed to drop to under 100kts. Now, ice on the wings and/or tail should not have caused this sequence of events - although it would have increased the aircraft's stall speed (the speed where the airflow over the wings is insufficient to provide lift).

    Incidents these days are rarely due to one reason - often a series of unrelated events that alone wouldn't be troublesome but combined results in disaster.

    Edited to add: The Dash-8 has some of the most significant anti-ice devices of any commercial aircraft. There is nothing (yet at least) to indicate that they were not operating to spec. If some or all of them had failed it would have been indicated by a warning light in the cockpit.

  11. #11
    Platinum Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Yilgarn region of Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    5,453
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    >With all the smarts that our scientist have, they can't come up with a sure fire way of stopping wing icing.

    http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/588565
    (Former U.S. safety chief criticizes de-icing gear after Buffalo disaster)
    "He was also critical of turboprop de-icing technology – air-filled rubber "boots" that expand and contract to dislodge ice, instead of the in-wing heaters used on jets to keep ice from forming."

  12. #12
    4 Star Lounger pauliez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    That's what I thought was used on all aircraft wings..... some sort of heating system to melt any ice build up.

    A rubber boot filled with air????

    Depending on how they are situated, wouldn't something like that change the shape of the air foil of the wing and cause problems with lift?
    Catz

  13. #13
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Confoederatio Helvetica
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Horrible Plane Crash In Buffalo,NY

    Here is an excellent report from the Buffalo News that gives some more insight into what may have happened. About 3/4s of the way down is an explanation of some (but not all) of the de-ice equipment on the Dash-8.

    The 'boots', which use bleed air to expand automatically every 24 seconds or so, are the most efficient use of the energy. Heating the entire wing isn't efficient - it's more efficient to flex the wings 2 or 3 times a minute which breaks off any accumulated ice - rather than trying to melt it and focus any electrical heating on critical parts (like the propellers). As the engine intakes are forward of the wing there is no danger of ice being ingested by the engines.

    The boots aren't 'filled with air' but flex for less than a second. While there would be some minor change in the airfoil it is not significant.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •