Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    676
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
    In Word 2003, I could apply outline numbering to heading styles, and I could customize the numbering for each heading style by using Format > Styles > Modify > Numbering.

    In Word 2007, I gather that this method is not available and that outline numbering is applied by applying heading styles, then placing the cursor in the first Heading 1 paragraph, then clicking on Home > Multilevel list, then selecting a list with heading names from the list library - is this correct?

    How can the formatting of the numbering for each heading style be customized; e.g., to insert a period after the number? It is unclear from the resources that I have found whether I need to use "Define New Multilevel List" or "Define New List Style" or something else. Everything that I have tried has caused heading numbers to disappear or to go out of sequence.

  2. #2
    Plutonium Lounger
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    84,353
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 29 Times in 29 Posts

  3. #3
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    676
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
    Thanks for your reply. I found several resources, including the one that you mention, and I eventually managed to apply and customize some outline numbering in Word 2007, partly through trial and error, although I find the system somewhat confusing.

    - http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/...line-numbering/
    - http://help.wugnet.com/office/Word-2007-He...ict1063294.html
    - http://help.lockergnome.com/office/Outline...ict1005016.html

    I found this one the most helpful.
    - http://www.microsystems.com/resources/word.../wordtip019.php
    "The interface implies it is not possible to modify a Multilevel List. At first glance it seems you must Define a New Multilevel List or Define a New List Style in order to modify an existing list.
    If your numbering is already applied, resist the Define New list entries on this Multilevel List Gallery, as you will indeed create a new list. Depending, you may inadvertently redefine a list already in use in the document.
    To modify a Multilevel List, simply click to select the automatic number at the front of the numbered paragraph, then right click and choose Adjust List Indents...."

    "Amend or Modify an existing Multilevel List:
    - A level of the Multilevel List must be applied to a paragraph. Then, click on the number to select it.
    - Now, right click and choose Adjust List Indents.
    - This displays the Define new Multilevel list dialog, (which is terribly confusing because you are truly modifying an existing list – not creating a new one) which enables you to amend number formats, indentation and linked styles or all levels of your current list."

    If I understand correctly:
    - "Define New Multilevel List" is used to set up a new list (i.e., a separate numbering sequence) *within the current document*,
    - "Define New List Style" is used to set up a new *type* of list (i.e., a different style of numbering, indenting, etc.), and
    - "Adjust List Indents" is used to customize the parameters of an existing list.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    2,970
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 29 Times in 27 Posts
    [quote name='Murgatroyd' post='794483' date='22-Sep-2009 19:23']Thanks for your reply. I found several resources, including the one that you mention, and I eventually managed to apply and customize some outline numbering in Word 2007, partly through trial and error, although I find the system somewhat confusing.

    - http://cybertext.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/...line-numbering/
    - http://help.wugnet.com/office/Word-2007-He...ict1063294.html
    - http://help.lockergnome.com/office/Outline...ict1005016.html

    I found this one the most helpful.
    - http://www.microsystems.com/resources/word.../wordtip019.php
    "The interface implies it is not possible to modify a Multilevel List. At first glance it seems you must Define a New Multilevel List or Define a New List Style in order to modify an existing list.
    If your numbering is already applied, resist the Define New list entries on this Multilevel List Gallery, as you will indeed create a new list. Depending, you may inadvertently redefine a list already in use in the document.
    To modify a Multilevel List, simply click to select the automatic number at the front of the numbered paragraph, then right click and choose Adjust List Indents...."

    "Amend or Modify an existing Multilevel List:
    - A level of the Multilevel List must be applied to a paragraph. Then, click on the number to select it.
    - Now, right click and choose Adjust List Indents.
    - This displays the Define new Multilevel list dialog, (which is terribly confusing because you are truly modifying an existing list not creating a new one) which enables you to amend number formats, indentation and linked styles or all levels of your current list."

    If I understand correctly:
    - "Define New Multilevel List" is used to set up a new list (i.e., a separate numbering sequence) *within the current document*,
    - "Define New List Style" is used to set up a new *type* of list (i.e., a different style of numbering, indenting, etc.), and
    - "Adjust List Indents" is used to customize the parameters of an existing list.[/quote]
    Seems to me that the Microsytems advice is itself confused:

    The 'Define new Multilevel list' dialog you get by selecting the autonumber, right-clicking and choosing Adjust List Indents, is the exact same dialog you get by clicking anywhere in the autonumbered paragraph, then clicking the 'Multilevel list' button on the Ribbon, and choosing 'Define New Multilevel list...'.

    So I don't see the point in their insistence on accessing the Define new Multilevel list dialog only via the former method, but not via the latter.

    Also, although they properly point out the need, in their discussion of autonumbering in Word up to 2003, to always start in a paragraph with the first outline numbering level applied, they omit that advice in their discussion of Word 2007 numbering - where it's still necessary.

    Couple of other notes:
    - I can't find a citation for this now, but recall reading in the last year or so an explanation from someone at Microsoft as to why the dialog is called "Define new Multilevel list", even when you want to just modify an existing list. The explanation, if I recall it right, was that behind the scenes, you actually are creating a new list every time, even when you think you are modifying an existing one - and they thought titling the dialog this way would make things clearer (that's what you get when developers define an interface!). Would be interested in comments on that.

    - In some ways, going up to the Ribbon to define or modify outline numbering is not that different from how it worked in earlier versions of Word. Although everyone was drilled with the "drill to China" approach to outline numbering (i.e. access it via Modify Style - to emphasize the need to connect styles to numbering) - it actually never was necessary to set up outline numbering via the Modify Style dialog: As long as you had first set up the styles you wanted to associate with the different list levels, you could then associate the styles with list levels just by going to Format > Bullets and Numbering > Outline Numbered > Customize. This would take you to the same "Customize Outline Numbered List" with the same functionality it has when accessed via Modify Style.

    Gary

  5. #5
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    676
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
    Thanks for your comments. I found the labels "Define New Multilevel List" and "Adjust List Indents" confusing. Labelling both as simply "Define Multilevel List" might be clearer and more consistent.

  6. #6
    Bronze Lounger
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,560
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    I've been following this discussion and the related discussions in the Microsoft communities >> newsgroups. I'm still a little puzzled by one thing.
    • If the insertion point lies in a paragraph that is not numbered (a "Normal" paragraph, e.g.), none of the buttons that denote numbering is illuminated.
      If I place the insertion point in a paragraph that is numbered (just plain numbering, not the outlined variety), the "Numbering" button lights up. However...
      If I place the insertion point in a paragraph that has outline numbering, the Numbering button lights, not the "Outline Numbering" button.

    My intuition tells me the Outline Numbering button should light up when I'm in a paragraph that is so numbered. Can anyone explain this?

  7. #7
    3 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Northridge, California, USA
    Posts
    230
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 12 Times in 11 Posts
    Not 100% sure, but I think it's a bug. (I've noticed the same thing.)

    Jan
    Author, Formatting Legal Documents With Microsoft Word 2016,
    Formatting Legal Documents With Microsoft Word 2010​,
    and Formatting Legal Documents With Microsoft Office Word 2007

    For Word and WordPerfect tips, visit my blog at http://compusavvy.wordpress.com

  8. #8
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    2,970
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 29 Times in 27 Posts
    [quote name='janbphd' post='796141' date='02-Oct-2009 19:45']Not 100% sure, but I think it's a bug. (I've noticed the same thing.)

    Jan[/quote]
    Just to further the idea that this is a bug, there also seems to be a mistake, or at least an inconsistency, with how the Outline Numbering button itself was implemented: If you look at both the Bullets and Numbering buttons, they are split controls - the button itself is on the left, and on the right is a down arrow. Clicking on the button performs the default action, and clicking on the down arrow opens up a menu with expanded options. And the screentips for these buttons supports that functionality, for example: "Numbering (new line) Start a numbered list (new line) Click the arrow to choose different numbering formats."

    The Multilevel List button looks like the other two buttons, including the down arrow, but for some reason, the down arrow is not split into a separate control. Meanwhile, confusingly, the screentip for this button follows the same format as the other two: "Multilevel list (new line) Start a multilevel level list (new line) Click the arrow to choose different multilevel list styles"

    This confusion (along with the "Define New Multilevel List" being used to also modify existing lists) seems suggestive that the functionality for Multilevel Lists was changed late in the game, perhaps amidst some internal disagreement as to how best implement this. I wonder if this will be cleaned up in Word 2010.

    Gary

  9. #9
    WS Lounge VIP
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    690
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 66 Times in 56 Posts
    [quote name='Gary Frieder' post='796196' date='03-Oct-2009 11:41']This confusion (along with the "Define New Multilevel List" being used to also modify existing lists) seems suggestive that the functionality for Multilevel Lists was changed late in the game, perhaps amidst some internal disagreement as to how best implement this. I wonder if this will be cleaned up in Word 2010.

    Gary[/quote]

    I don't think there is a default action for the multilevel list button. The user must choose one to apply. That means the arrow is just telling us that another menu will appear.

    W2007 multilevel list functionality is very little changed from the outline lists of W2003. Only the point of entry through modify styles has been eliminated. The dialog has been rearranged slightly and an indent capability added, but otherwise it is pretty much the same. I, too, was at first confused by the "Define New Multilevel List" command. But later, I noticed that in previous versions, Word called it "customizing" an outline numbered list but that what it was doing was creating a new list. I know this because I sometimes had trouble figuring out which numbering icon (one for each time I changed something in a list) to use in a different document--and because I have read many rants complaining about the behavior.

    So why change the wording after having many of us fooled for so long? The answer: Mutilevel list styles, which in W2007 function almost identically to multilevel lists but can be created, named, modified, shared, and deleted. Multilevel lists can only be created (or defined). Most people can use the built in multilevel lists very easily and may never need to use or think about list styles. For some of the rest of us, list styles can save time and effort and result in more consistent documents.

    Pam
    Pam Caswell

  10. #10
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    2,970
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 29 Times in 27 Posts
    [quote name='PamCaswell' post='796235' date='03-Oct-2009 20:48']I don't think there is a default action for the multilevel list button. The user must choose one to apply. That means the arrow is just telling us that another menu will appear.

    W2007 multilevel list functionality is very little changed from the outline lists of W2003. Only the point of entry through modify styles has been eliminated. The dialog has been rearranged slightly and an indent capability added, but otherwise it is pretty much the same. I, too, was at first confused by the "Define New Multilevel List" command. But later, I noticed that in previous versions, Word called it "customizing" an outline numbered list but that what it was doing was creating a new list. I know this because I sometimes had trouble figuring out which numbering icon (one for each time I changed something in a list) to use in a different document--and because I have read many rants complaining about the behavior.

    So why change the wording after having many of us fooled for so long? The answer: Mutilevel list styles, which in W2007 function almost identically to multilevel lists but can be created, named, modified, shared, and deleted. Multilevel lists can only be created (or defined). Most people can use the built in multilevel lists very easily and may never need to use or think about list styles. For some of the rest of us, list styles can save time and effort and result in more consistent documents.

    Pam[/quote]
    Pam,

    Thanks for this info - clearly I haven't dug into Word 2007 in depth the way I did with earlier versions. Will dig into the List Style concept some more once I get back to the location where I have Office 2007, in a couple of days.
    In the meantime: in earlier versions, you could assign an outline numbered list a list name (either programatically, or via the 'Listnum field list name' text field in the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog) - Is a List Style functionally the same as a named list?

    Gary

  11. #11
    WS Lounge VIP
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    690
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 66 Times in 56 Posts
    [quote name='Gary Frieder' post='796242' date='04-Oct-2009 03:41']Pam,

    Thanks for this info - clearly I haven't dug into Word 2007 in depth the way I did with earlier versions. Will dig into the List Style concept some more once I get back to the location where I have Office 2007, in a couple of days.
    In the meantime: in earlier versions, you could assign an outline numbered list a list name (either programatically, or via the 'Listnum field list name' text field in the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog) - Is a List Style functionally the same as a named list?

    Gary[/quote]

    I have never named a list in the outline or multilievel list dialog, so I'm guessing ... but since the ListNum field does not allow linking numbering levels to paragraph styles, I'd say no, in W2007 they are not the same.

    Note, though, that W2003 list styles could not be linked to paragraph styles and so may be functionally the same as a named ListNum field. Again, I'm guessing. Perhaps those who have named the ListNum fields used in their outline or multilievel lists can tell us more.

    Pam
    Pam Caswell

  12. #12
    Bronze Lounger
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,560
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    I've followed the advice I've read in more than one place and named my outline lists, but I've never understood why. If I could retrieve the value "ListNum field list name" so as to apply that numbering scheme to a new document, it would make sense to name them. Have I overlooked something?

  13. #13
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    2,970
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 29 Times in 27 Posts
    [quote name='PamCaswell' post='796248' date='04-Oct-2009 08:12']I have never named a list in the outline or multilievel list dialog, so I'm guessing ... but since the ListNum field does not allow linking numbering levels to paragraph styles, I'd say no, in W2007 they are not the same.

    Note, though, that W2003 list styles could not be linked to paragraph styles and so may be functionally the same as a named ListNum field. Again, I'm guessing. Perhaps those who have named the ListNum fields used in their outline or multilievel lists can tell us more.

    Pam[/quote]
    Hi again,

    I've just put myself through a quick refresher on how List Styles worked in Word 2002 and 2003, as well as how they work in Word 2007. (No place I've worked has ever made use of the List Style feature so it's not familiar ground - I believe List Styles were generally unpopular precisely because they appear to dissociate outline numbered lists from paragraph styles, the use of which is considered good practice by most folks.)

    Doing a little more digging into this feature now, it appears that in Word 2002/2003, you can link paragraph styles to list styles; it's just a very roundabout path to get there: In the Styles and Formatting pane, click the dropdown next to a List Style, choose Modify. In the ensuing Modify Style dialog, choose Format > Numbering, which brings up the Bullets and Numbering dialog (but in this case, with only an 'Outline Numbered' tab), and you can then click Customize to get to the Customize Outline Numbered List - from where you can link any style you want to, to the different levels of the List Style (and btw this is the same dialog you would get if you were setting up an outline numbered list directly from modifying a paragraph style).

    I guess if you used List Styles in Word 2002/2003 this way, and associated each List Style with its own unique set of paragraph styles, that could be a valid practice, but in effect you would end up with a result little different from the traditional method of setting up outline numbered lists as being associated with paragraph styles - so why bother?

    It doesn't look like Multilevel List Styles in Word 2007 are any different in functionality from how they worked in Word 2002/2003 - it's just the way they are created and made available for reuse that's changed: In Word 2007, you click on the Multilevel List button and choose the Define New List Style option to bring up the Define New List Style dialog - but to modify this in any useful way, from here you have to click on Format > Numbering to bring up the Modify Multilevel List dialog - this is exactly parallel to how it worked in 2002/2003; it's just the interface that's changed. And instead of List Styles being displayed in the Styles and Formatting pane as they were in Word 2002/2003, now the List Styles have got their own little display space in the Multilevel List menu gallery.

    Based on this admittedly quick look, it doesn't seem like the Multilevel List Styles in Word 2007 are new functionality or are any different from the List Styles in Word 2002/2003; they're just created, modified and displayed for reuse via a new (and not necessarily any more intuitive) interface.

    Gary

  14. #14
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    2,970
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 29 Times in 27 Posts
    [quote name='Caesar3' post='796388' date='05-Oct-2009 10:21']I've followed the advice I've read in more than one place and named my outline lists, but I've never understood why. If I could retrieve the value "ListNum field list name" so as to apply that numbering scheme to a new document, it would make sense to name them. Have I overlooked something?[/quote]
    Lucas,

    I'm in the same boat with you with respect to naming outline lists; I've read advice to the effect that outline lists should be named, and in particular that they must be named if you're generating outline lists purely programatically (in order to maintain the reliability/stability of the numbering independent of the vagaries of differing numbering gallery display status on different users' computers), but I've never used that method (that is, I've built stable outline numbered lists both manually and programatically, but in neither case have needed to name the list) - apparently there's more than one valid way to do this.

    Gary

  15. #15
    WS Lounge VIP
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    690
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 66 Times in 56 Posts
    [quote name='Gary Frieder' post='796415' date='05-Oct-2009 12:49']Hi again,

    Doing a little more digging into this feature now, it appears that in Word 2002/2003, you can link paragraph styles to list styles; it's just a very roundabout path to get there: In the Styles and Formatting pane, click the dropdown next to a List Style, choose Modify. In the ensuing Modify Style dialog, choose Format > Numbering, which brings up the Bullets and Numbering dialog (but in this case, with only an 'Outline Numbered' tab), and you can then click Customize to get to the Customize Outline Numbered List - from where you can link any style you want to, to the different levels of the List Style (and btw this is the same dialog you would get if you were setting up an outline numbered list directly from modifying a paragraph style).[/quote]

    Thank you, Gary. I must never have clicked the format button and apparently neither did any of the other people who also have said that you couldn't link 2002&3 list style levels to paragraph styles. Although... Microsoft has changed Word 2003 over the years and particularly since 2006, when the introduction of W20007 was upon us. I've noticed a few changes that help with forward/backward compatibility. So I wonder if there's been a change since I last looked into W2003 list styles.

    Pam
    Pam Caswell

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •