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  1. #1
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    Hello All,
    I know that i will take a "beating" for this post, from all you "squishies" (MS Update aficionados) But i feel that the truth will win the day.First the backround
    1. Vista Home Premium 32 bit
    2. Norton 360 v2.5 / Malwarebytes
    3. HP Pavilion (3 Internal Hard drives) 1st "OS", 2nd "Data", 3rd Experimental.
    4. Bag of "Tools" Acronis TI-11 (8101) jv-16 (registry tweeker) Un-locker, WinBubble, etc.
    5. Me, a total "Noob" ( or fill in the blank) 3 years PC experience.
    6. Remember that common wisdom is usually wrong.
    Now the story.... After seeing my "OS " size creeping upwards after the installation of SP-2(and all the updates) and not from shadow copies or "restore images" i decided to try an experiment.I Reverted back to my original recovery disks and after removing all the "Bloatware "(And yes you can remove any part of the Original "OS",Windows Mail etc.) Although sometimes not an easy task. Then re-installed all of my programs, but still no MS updates,There were 95 "patches" waiting to be installed (pre SP-1) I then ran and updated Norton and Malwarebytes. So far so good.Next step was to run the "stand alone SP-1" (had previously stored on my Data disk) This step installed about 30 or so of the original 95. After this i selectively picked out the updates that i wanted which ended up being most of the rest of them. Now at this point SP-2 was offered but now i stopped and "hid" all the remaining updates SP-2 included.The "Bottom Line" My system went from 14.6GB to 9.67GB Normal Acronis Backup compression. Can you say "system bloat"? So you say how can i live with out the Updates? ...Some more Facts
    1. MS updates once a month, with occasional out of sequence patches (when the screaming gets loud enough)
    2. There is no defense against a "zero day" exploit.
    3. My Norton 360 Updates every 4 Hours (default setting) Norton Switches off Windows Defender and the MS firewall,
    so what good are the "patches or updates"?
    4. Malwarebytes Updates everyday.
    5. So who is better off? me or you with your "patches to patch patches" Offered once a month?
    6. What am i risking i ask? by not doing the "cat chasing its tail thing" ? Continuing on to SP-2. (with all the "bloat")
    First off i have "backups " going back at least 2 months or more.So even if my "security" fails.... big deal ! The first thing Acronis recovery program does is "wipe the disk" A simple mater to recover to a time before any problems existed.. I have more but at this point i would like to hear from all of you where my "logic" is wrong.For now my system is lean and mean and it all works !!! Think about it, Regards
    PlainFred

    None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free (J. W. Von Goethe)

  2. #2
    Super Moderator satrow's Avatar
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    Hi Fred,

    Some questions: which browser version do you use? Which versions of Flash and Java are installed? What PDF reader and version do you have? Do you use a router with NAT and SPI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Rowlands View Post
    Hi Fred,

    Some questions: which browser version do you use? Which versions of Flash and Java are installed? What PDF reader and version do you have? Do you use a router with NAT and SPI?
    Hello Andy,
    I use Firefox 3.5.5, and keep up with the "Flash" updates via "File Hippo and Secunia" and i use adobe reader 9.2. and do not use "Java" any longer. I am a simple "home user" research only (no gaming etc. ) and don't know what NAT is or does? ! Thanks for the reply, Regards
    PlainFred

    None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free (J. W. Von Goethe)

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    Hi Fred i to rely on Acronis image's stored on external, also run Kaspersky and Mailwasher. Had problem with Vista SP2 which damaged my Office suit and then I restored back prior to the SP1. Already had Office 2000 patched to SP3 and have turned Windows update off, Windows firewall Off, Windows Mail Off, Permissions Off and computer works just fine.
    Kaspersky runs a good Firewall and Malware protection, Mailwasher vets all mail downloading into computer and Memmo and Acronis is doing its thing ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Plumtree View Post
    Hi Fred i to rely on Acronis image's stored on external, also run Kaspersky and Mailwasher. Had problem with Vista SP2 which damaged my Office suit and then I restored back prior to the SP1. Already had Office 2000 patched to SP3 and have turned Windows update off, Windows firewall Off, Windows Mail Off, Permissions Off and computer works just fine.
    Kaspersky runs a good Firewall and Malware protection, Mailwasher vets all mail downloading into computer and Memmo and Acronis is doing its thing ok.
    Hello Robert,
    I am glad to hear that someone else has had some "problems" with the never ending "micro squish updates "(and decided to do SOMETHING) unless someone can show me that my logic or lack there of is wrong i will never apply another MS update unless there is some reason to ( like some program that i want won't run) without it ( ex. NETFramework Stuff etc.) In my not so humble opinion if your system is working and you have a good security program or programs in my best "brooklyn-eeze" for-get a-bout it" Regards
    PlainFred

    None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free (J. W. Von Goethe)

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    5 Star Lounger PaulB's Avatar
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    Fred, after reading your impeccably logical and brilliantly stated argument for no longer updating Windows, I was almost convinced that this was the way for me. But then I was shocked, Fred, shocked, I say, to see that you succumbed, you faltered, Fred, and you actually updated some other products like Firefox, Flash and Adobe reader. Worse, you actually update the likes of Norton and Malwarebytes DAILY! Tell me, Fred, what on Earth is wrong with the versions you installed originally? Do you not see them creeping up in size, leaving artifacts throughout your disks contributing to this dreaded bloat? I mean OK, the updates may correct problems and bugs reported by users and add new and improved functionality but, that aside, is it really worth all the effort, Fred? After all, if it worked yesterday or last month, why fix what ain't broke?
    Regards,
    PaulB

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
    Fred, after reading your impeccably logical and brilliantly stated argument for no longer updating Windows, I was almost convinced that this was the way for me. But then I was shocked, Fred, shocked, I say, to see that you succumbed, you faltered, Fred, and you actually updated some other products like Firefox, Flash and Adobe reader. Worse, you actually update the likes of Norton and Malwarebytes DAILY! Tell me, Fred, what on Earth is wrong with the versions you installed originally? Do you not see them creeping up in size, leaving artifacts throughout your disks contributing to this dreaded bloat? I mean OK, the updates may correct problems and bugs reported by users and add new and improved functionality but, that aside, is it really worth all the effort, Fred? After all, if it worked yesterday or last month, why fix what ain't broke?
    PaulB,
    Hello, Thanks for the reply. I will try to explain. It was the never ending Windows updates that "Bloated"my system (not the Norton or Firefox or Adobe) Those i can keep an eye on and always do something about them as they are in files that i can look at. not like a MS update where you only see the result of the application. Example: on one of my attempts (did this test with several iterations) my original "OS" with all programs was about (from my notes) 7.37GB compressed Backup, after SP-1 with some updates was 9.87GB compressed backup After SP-2 somewhere around 14.6GB (since i have trimmed it down to about 9.69GB Compressed Backup) You cant do any thing once you install updates (most of them cant be removed) Other than do a recovery and start over. Also it was not only the dreaded bloat my system was becoming increasingly "buggy" Think of it this way ... you have a zillion software companies making stuff and at the same time a zillion programmers updating the updates .... somewhere along the line things stop working. (this was me) Look My system now is working 100% at SP-1 and trimmed down . I trust myself and my security to do their job in keeping my "PC" safe Don't need any more stinking updates from Micro Squish. Regards
    PlainFred

    None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free (J. W. Von Goethe)

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    5 Star Lounger PaulB's Avatar
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    My apologies, Fred. My reply to you was all tongue-in-cheek. I couldn't help myself... the devil made me do it. I think this is a case where we have to agree to disagree. Quite apart from the security concerns, I apply MS updates to correct bugs and for the enhanced functionality.
    Regards,
    PaulB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Plain Fred View Post
    I trust myself and my security to do their job in keeping my "PC" safe Don't need any more stinking updates from Micro Squish. Regards

    Be sure to let us know how that works out for ya, Fred.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stanton View Post
    Be sure to let us know how that works out for ya, Fred.
    Hello Mike,
    I am not trying to start arguments, just passing along FACTS! And if your really interested, send me a PM and i will be happy to let you know how things have worked out as this experiment was done over the past month. Regards
    PlainFred

    None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free (J. W. Von Goethe)

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    Super Moderator satrow's Avatar
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    NAT (Network Address Translation) is the method that many of us use to access the 'net - our routers connect to the 'net and are given an IP address, the router then gives each connected computer.device a different (private) IP address, which cannot be accessed directly from the 'net. All allowed external requests are then routed to the computer/device inside the private network and anything else is blocked. This is often augmented by SPI (Stateful Packet Inspection).

    I also use OpenDNS to control web access, Spybot's immunize feature, SpywareBlaster and, on the odd occasions I need to use a Torrent or other P2P client, PeerBlock.

    I havent allowed Windows Updates on this PC since MS decided it wanted to test rebooting my build 7100 for fun with an update which replaced like for like back in July. When I am forced to install Home Premium, which has sat wrapped, next to my coffee cup for the past month, I'll allow Windows to update fully then lock it down again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Plain Fred View Post
    1. MS updates once a month, with occasional out of sequence patches (when the screaming gets loud enough)
    2. There is no defense against a "zero day" exploit.
    3. My Norton 360 Updates every 4 Hours (default setting) Norton Switches off Windows Defender and the MS firewall,
    so what good are the "patches or updates"?
    4. Malwarebytes Updates everyday.
    5. So who is better off? me or you with your "patches to patch patches" Offered once a month?
    6. What am i risking i ask? by not doing the "cat chasing its tail thing" ? Continuing on to SP-2. (with all the "bloat")
    First off i have "backups " going back at least 2 months or more.So even if my "security" fails.... big deal ! The first thing Acronis recovery program does is "wipe the disk" A simple mater to recover to a time before any problems existed.. I have more but at this point i would like to hear from all of you where my "logic" is wrong.For now my system is lean and mean and it all works !!! Think about it, Regards
    1.) Do you want more or less frequent updates? What's the point?
    2.) Yes, there may be. It depends entirely on the nature of the exploit.
    3.) The monthly Microsoft patches are seldom to Windows Defender and even less often to Windows Firewall. The patches that are released cover functional and security issues. The issues could be something causes data loss or invalid results or poor performance in addition to security issues.
    4.) So What?? That is only valuable if you run into one of the pieces of malware it detects.
    5.) Me with my fully patched system. If anything gets by Norton 360 or you install something that takes advantage of a knows flaw you are hosed.
    6.) As long as there is absolutely no personally identifiable information on your PC then proceed as you wish.

    My systems run as quickly as they ever have both at work and at home.

    If space is the real issue then there are relatively simple ways to recover most of the space taken by patches and service packs.

    Joe
    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Plain Fred View Post
    Hello Robert,
    I am glad to hear that someone else has had some "problems" with the never ending "micro squish updates "(and decided to do SOMETHING) unless someone can show me that my logic or lack there of is wrong i will never apply another MS update unless there is some reason to ( like some program that i want won't run) without it ( ex. NETFramework Stuff etc.) In my not so humble opinion if your system is working and you have a good security program or programs in my best "brooklyn-eeze" for-get a-bout it" Regards
    The main reason i put an image prior to SP2 (I had patched to SP2) was Microsoft support more or less told me I needed to un-install my Office Premium 2000 and agreed with me then the SP2 lock on one of 3 Reg Entry's (other two i had managed to gain permission on) frg\access fragment\shell new; co\col file\shell new and ffa\ffa file\shell new. Meant very unlikely I'd be able to continue using the Office Suit I payed lot money for etc.

    Computer runs just fine, I'm pretty confident Kaspersky does a really good job and at worst dump an image back if i had to. Given i really only want to write letters, maintain my web and not much more, i reckon will go with the setup i have, runs just as good as it did with the SP2 installed anyway...I'll stay in the here and now i think

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeperez View Post
    1.) Do you want more or less frequent updates? What's the point?
    2.) Yes, there may be. It depends entirely on the nature of the exploit.
    3.) The monthly Microsoft patches are seldom to Windows Defender and even less often to Windows Firewall. The patches that are released cover functional and security issues. The issues could be something causes data loss or invalid results or poor performance in addition to security issues.
    4.) So What?? That is only valuable if you run into one of the pieces of malware it detects.
    5.) Me with my fully patched system. If anything gets by Norton 360 or you install something that takes advantage of a knows flaw you are hosed.
    6.) As long as there is absolutely no personally identifiable information on your PC then proceed as you wish.

    My systems run as quickly as they ever have both at work and at home.

    If space is the real issue then there are relatively simple ways to recover most of the space taken by patches and service packs.

    Joe
    Joe ,
    Hello, and Thanks for you input. Let me respond to your answers and questions.
    1.Don't mind updates, just the ones from "microsquish" that if you do the math added about 6.9GB to my pre SP-1 & 2, 7.7GB "OS" (compressed backup ) with Norton and Malwarebytes installed, to my last system backup (old "OS") of 14.6GB (compressed backup) You can't make me believe that almost doubling your "OS" has no effect on anything.I think that after looking at the sizes of all the claimed numbers for their "updates " the numbers just don't add up . the updates must be highly compressed or they are "spinning " the numbers.
    3. As i dont have my old system installed i can only rely on my best guess as to windows defender updates, seems to me that they were many per month "Definitions" updates maybe someone can look and give the number as i recall there were a lot.
    4. I could say the same for the "microsquish"updates as well.
    5. space is not the issue, and i did run all the "SP clean" command prompt programs each and every time. Most of the "MS' updates tell you at the get go that "once installed they can not be removed" so don't know how you can recover the space? I guess its just a question of who's "PC" this is anyway, mine or Microsquishs and as of now ITS MINE!!! Regards
    PlainFred

    None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free (J. W. Von Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Rowlands View Post
    NAT (Network Address Translation) is the method that many of us use to access the 'net - our routers connect to the 'net and are given an IP address, the router then gives each connected computer.device a different (private) IP address, which cannot be accessed directly from the 'net. All allowed external requests are then routed to the computer/device inside the private network and anything else is blocked. This is often augmented by SPI (Stateful Packet Inspection).

    I also use OpenDNS to control web access, Spybot's immunize feature, SpywareBlaster and, on the odd occasions I need to use a Torrent or other P2P client, PeerBlock.

    I havent allowed Windows Updates on this PC since MS decided it wanted to test rebooting my build 7100 for fun with an update which replaced like for like back in July. When I am forced to install Home Premium, which has sat wrapped, next to my coffee cup for the past month, I'll allow Windows to update fully then lock it down again.
    Andy,
    Thank you for the explanation ! Regards
    PlainFred

    None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free (J. W. Von Goethe)

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