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  1. #1
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    I am somewhat disturbed by what appears to be silent censorship occurring in the Lounge. The first case I noticed was a reply to a recent post of mine which disappeared. (My postis here, the now-missing reply I'm referring to occurred on January 1st, several hours prior to Brian's response, two posts down) I contacted the author of that post, and was informed that his post was removed without notification from any administrator or moderator. The excised post was somewhat critical of the current administration, but in no way was it abusive or in contravention of any of the posted rules of this lounge (I have a copy of it if anyone would like to judge for themselves).

    http://bro.ws/770974L is an example of a second, more minor, example of censorship. This message was orignally posted in the Test Forum, and included a caveat that although it was being posted in the Test Forum, the OP had an issue to be resolved. At the time, I was rushed and not able to reply in order to suggest that he repost his question in the proper forum, or contact a moderator to move the post for him. I now see that the post has been moved to the correct forum, but the original post has been changed, removing the sentence referring to posting in the Test Forum. While it makes sense to remove that reference once the post was moved, I am very concerned that the edit was made without any documentation. Yes, the Test Forum shows that the post was moved, but reading the post itself would lead one to believe that no changes were made to the post. Since any edits made by a member are automatically documented, I must assume that a moderator or administrator is responsible for the change, and did not bother to note the edit.

    I am very aware that this is no longer Woody's Lounge, but there are many of us here who have spent the last decade used to certain courtesies and conventions; one of which is that while moderators might find it necessary to edit a post or even remove it, such changes were never made in camera. If a post was removed because of violation of a rule, the reason was always noted by the moderator taking the action. Even something as simple as moving a post to the proper thread was accompanied by a note by the moderator doing the moving. And to change another's words without documentation is reprehensible in my estimation.

    ----- ADDED BY: Brian Livingston -----

    I looked into what happened to the Post 770974 that you mentioned. According to the Moderator Log, the post was moved by a Moderator from the Test Area to the General Windows forum on Jan. 11 at 07:43 GMT.

    Because members cannot move a post from one forum to another, I assume the member requested that a Mod make the move and remove the line saying "I've probably posted this into the wrong forum," or whatever the line originally said. Because the Mod was responding to a request, there would be no need to include a public explanation that the now-erroneous line had been removed. We all want Mods to be helpful when asked, so this procedure seems fine to me.
    Samantha

    Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks!
    Robert A. Heinlein - Time Enough for Love

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  3. #2
    Plutonium Lounger
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    Samanth,

    I can't comment on most of your post, but I would like to say something about this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha View Post
    ...Even something as simple as moving a post to the proper thread was accompanied by a note by the moderator doing the moving....
    In the old lounge the software provided a natural way for someone moving a post to add an explanation in the old location. The design of the IPB software is such that a pointer is left in the index of the old location, and there is no sensible place to leave an explanation. This is something that we will just have to get used to.

  4. #3
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    I'm new here so I can't answer your question. What I can tell you is that I, too, have had a post moved. First for review by an Admin, and later it was determined that it linked to an "inappropriate site", so it was removed without any notification. It wasn't until I posted regarding the missing post that I received an explanation as to why. Oddly enough, that same day I found a button on the IE8 toolbar advertising an addon with links to the very site my deleted post referred to.

    I think we all recognize that there will be growing pains with the new forum, but I would suggest that there be a full review of all current practices and policies to make sure that they can be adapted to the new forum, or if they even still apply...or is this a "management issue"?

    Sorry if this came off sounding like a complaint...it's not. I came from WS, so I'm not familiar with the "dynamic" here, and I like this forum very much, I just think now might be a good time to regroup...

    Mike

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by StuartR View Post
    In the old lounge the software provided a natural way for someone moving a post to add an explanation in the old location. The design of the IPB software is such that a pointer is left in the index of the old location, and there is no sensible place to leave an explanation.
    Stuart,

    Thanks for the clarification that the software now being used isn't as conducive toward adding a note as to why a post might had been moved. However, in this case, it's not the moving of the post that bothered me so much, as the fact that a moderator/administrator also edited the post by removing the language that referred to it having been made in the test forum. They certainly had no problem excising content from the post -- how difficult would it have been to add a note that it had been edited, and why? Is there a policy that allows moderators/administrators to edit members' posts without notation?
    Samantha

    Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks!
    Robert A. Heinlein - Time Enough for Love

  6. #5
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    Samantha,
    I agree NO MOD or Admin should never edit a post without leaving the Edited by note. When I edit a post this note is there by default and I intend to keep it that way.

    Most of the NEW staff have a lot to learn about this Lounge and how it has been run in the past. We all are going through changes, and some are learning how things were done, from post made such as this one. It is hard to remember EVERY thing and how it was done, but ideas keep jumping up to be seen.

    Hang in there and we will get things settled down sometime

    Now running HP Pavilion a6528p, with Win7 64 Bit OS.

  7. #6
    3 Star Lounger HeyJude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveA View Post
    Samantha,
    I agree NO MOD or Admin should never edit a post without leaving the Edited by note. When I edit a post this note is there by default and I intend to keep it that way.

    Most of the NEW people have a lot to learn about this Lounge and how it has been run in the past. We all are going through changes, and some are learning how things were done, from post made such as this one. It is hard to remember EVERY thing and how it was done, but ideas keep jumping up to be seen.

    Hang in there and we will get things settled down sometime
    As a new member I do NOT know "how it was run in the past." I just know I was invited to join thru the WS Newsletter and I did. I had no idea that the politicking in here would be such as it is. I've been a member of a couple of other forums where you have a pecking order established and you know upfront what is allowed and disallowed. Hansv welcomed me here and made it a warm, comfortable place to learn and I had hoped to make some new acquaintances. Several of my friends from other forums also joined about the same time I did and it felt conducive to learning and sharing and getting to know more than I ever dreamed possible about computers. It is disconcerting to read about politicking and how it "used to be" and what it "should be" and why "it isn't like this anymore." For now I'll just settle back and watch and see how it's supposed to be. I know I've made mistakes in posting and haven't conformed to every jot and tittle listed in the rules. Since it sounds like the "new people" are the ones that are targeted, perhaps I am one of the ones that needs to just find elsewhere to hang out.

    Hey Jude
    Take a sad song and make it better

  8. #7
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    Most of the NEW people have a lot to learn
    Should have been "Most of the NEW staff have a lot to learn "
    Sorry to have stepped on any one's toes

    Now running HP Pavilion a6528p, with Win7 64 Bit OS.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha View Post
    ...
    Is there a policy that allows moderators/administrators to edit members' posts without notation?
    This might be acceptable is if the moderator also sent a PM to the original poster explaining what they had done and why. We might also delete posts that are clearly SPAM without notifying the original poster.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hey Jude View Post
    ...Since it sounds like the "new members" are the ones that are targeted, perhaps I am one of the ones that needs to just find elsewhere to hang out.
    Hey Jude
    Hey Jude, I'm sorry you interpreted my queries and the subsequent responses as being targeted to new members. That certainly is not the case. I have yet to see any new member treated any differently since the switch from Woody's Lounge to Windows Secret's Lounge.

    I'm requesting clarification on the part of the new management as to how and when posts are edited (or even deleted) by the admins and moderators without making a note in the post or thread. There seems to have been a definite shift on how the boards are managed, and I am requesting that any policy change be explicitly stated for the sake of us who are used to a different management style.

    Quote Originally Posted by StuartR View Post
    This might be acceptable is if the moderator also sent a PM to the original poster explaining what they had done and why. We might also delete posts that are clearly SPAM without notifying the original poster.
    Stuart, I agree that deletion of a post that is spam without communicating with the original poster is reasonable. But what about a post that is in violation of Rule 18? Or in the case I posted above, not in violation of any posted rules, but simply critical of how the Lounge was being managed?
    Samantha

    Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks!
    Robert A. Heinlein - Time Enough for Love

  11. #10
    3 Star Lounger HeyJude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha View Post
    Hey Jude, I'm sorry you interpreted my queries and the subsequent responses as being targeted to new members. That certainly is not the case. I have yet to see any new member treated any differently since the switch from Woody's Lounge to Windows Secret's Lounge.
    I have not taken issue with anything you posted I only posted that because of some of the remarks in other threads in regards to Admin/Mod handling of certain issues. I was responding more to, "Most of the NEW people have a lot to learn about this Lounge and how it has been run in the past." (which DaveA clarified) with "Should have been "Most of the NEW staff have a lot to learn "

    So don't worry. It's all fine As a newbie there is no way I can know how it used to be run vs how it is being run now. My only hope is to be a positive contributor and enjoy myself here. I appreciate your posts and love your photo.

    Hey Jude
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha View Post
    ...I agree that deletion of a post that is spam without communicating with the original poster is reasonable. But what about a post that is in violation of Rule 18? Or in the case I posted above, not in violation of any posted rules, but simply critical of how the Lounge was being managed?
    I am not aware of any admin or moderator having deleted posts such as you describe.

    I would not expect that kind of post to be deleted unless they were very confrontational, and then I would expect the person deleting them to send a PM explaining their actions.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by StuartR View Post
    I am not aware of any admin or moderator having deleted posts such as you describe.

    I would not expect that kind of post to be deleted unless they were very confrontational, and then I would expect the person deleting them to send a PM explaining their actions.
    I'd be happy to post a copy of the deleted post for your review, however I fear I would be subject to the same treatment. I certainly didn't read it as "very confrontational," however I have a fairly thick skin and tend not to take things personally. I'll send you a copy via PM so you can judge for yourself.
    Samantha

    Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks!
    Robert A. Heinlein - Time Enough for Love

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    I know that Brian has posted elsewhere that the admins don't constantly monitor the posts in this forum, and if we need an immediate reply to use the "Contact an Administrator" link at the bottom of the page. I had originally considered doing so rather than posting here, but I think this is an important issue that everyone deserves the answer to, and I'd appreciate it if one of the admins could respond publicly here.

    Since posting yesterday morning, I have carefully re-read the rules; and yes, according to the published rules the moderators and administrators may edit or delete any post, for any reason, without notice (even if it does not violate any of the specific rules).

    However, my question is not what is "legal" under the terms of this lounge, but what the policy is for documenting any edits or deletions to members' posts. Obviously, I'll have to live with the answer, but I strongly believe we all deserve to know if my suspicions are correct that we must not post any material that runs counter to the opinion of one (any?) of the admins, or our post (or even the entire thread) might be summarily deleted, and we'll never know which admin the post offended, or why. (These suspicions have only been strengthened by Claude's resignation and the disappearance of that thread.)

    Since it is possible that none of the admins have yet read this thread, I'll be patient for a while longer, and only "contact an administrator" if we haven't seen an administrator's response by tomorrow.
    Samantha

    Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks!
    Robert A. Heinlein - Time Enough for Love

  15. #14
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    I know that Brian has posted elsewhere that the admins don't constantly monitor the posts in this forum, and if we need an immediate reply to use the "Contact an Administrator" link at the bottom of the page. I had originally considered doing so rather than posting here, but I think this is an important issue that everyone deserves the answer to, and I'd appreciate it if one of the admins could respond publicly here.

    Since posting yesterday morning, I have carefully re-read the rules; and yes, according to the published rules the moderators and administrators may edit or delete any post, for any reason, without notice (even if it does not violate any of the specific rules).

    However, my question is not what is "legal" under the terms of this lounge, but what the policy is for documenting any edits or deletions to members' posts. Obviously, I'll have to live with the answer, but I strongly believe we all deserve to know if my suspicions are correct that we must not post any material that runs counter to the opinion of one (any?) of the admins, or our post (or even the entire thread) might be summarily deleted, and we'll never know which admin the post offended, or why. (These suspicions have only been strengthened by Claude's resignation and the disappearance of that thread.)

    Since it is possible that none of the admins have yet read this thread, I'll be patient for a while longer, and only "contact an administrator" if we haven't seen an administrator's response by tomorrow.
    Samantha

    Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks!
    Robert A. Heinlein - Time Enough for Love

  16. #15
    3 Star Lounger
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    I know that Brian has posted elsewhere that the admins don't constantly monitor the posts in this forum, and if we need an immediate reply to use the "Contact an Administrator" link at the bottom of the page. I had originally considered doing so rather than posting here, but I think this is an important issue that everyone deserves the answer to, and I'd appreciate it if one of the admins could respond publicly here.

    Since posting yesterday morning, I have carefully re-read the rules; and yes, according to the published rules the moderators and administrators may edit or delete any post, for any reason, without notice (even if it does not violate any of the specific rules).

    However, my question is not what is "legal" under the terms of this lounge, but what the policy is for documenting any edits or deletions to members' posts. Obviously, I'll have to live with the answer, but I strongly believe we all deserve to know if my suspicions are correct that we must not post any material that runs counter to the opinion of one (any?) of the admins, or our post (or even the entire thread) might be summarily deleted, and we'll never know which admin the post offended, or why. (These suspicions have only been strengthened by Claude's resignation and the disappearance of that thread.)

    Since it is possible that none of the admins have yet read this thread, I'll be patient for a while longer, and only "contact an administrator" if we haven't seen an administrator's response by tomorrow.
    Samantha

    Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks!
    Robert A. Heinlein - Time Enough for Love

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