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  1. #1
    Star Lounger
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    Is it time to give up on Windows? I think that this discussion is best housed here, rather than Non-Microsoft OSes. My interest is more in the opinions of others about the pros and cons of giving up on Windows 7, rather than where to go after giving up on it.

    I will admit to being a compu-geezer, dating back to the original PC. I have been thoroughly spoiled. Did you know that the technical manual for the first IBM PC contained full commented source code for the operating system? No Secret Black Boxes from Redmond back then! The user could program and use the computer as if he ACTUALLY OWNED the thing! Sure, if I locked out other interrupts too long in my interrupt service routines, the system clock might miss counting a tick or two. I accepted that I might cause myself problems by having the control I had, but it was precisely that control which allowed me to quickly and easily solve really complex problems! Putting your own electronics on the system buss was almost trivially easy! Now that the operating system has undergone so much "improvement", I have to do a research project just to find out how to access my own data files!

    My new H-P computer came with Win7 installed. As I have attempted to use it, I have encountered a blizzard of "Denied" and "Prohibited" and "Locked" and their synonyms. I have spent over two hours in the Lounge reading post after post from users who are frustrated by having been stripped of control of the computers they OWN by Bill's Latest and Greatest. I have found a plethora of registry edits, widgets, gadgets, work arounds, Power Toys, scripts, unlockers, and on and on and on ad infinitum. There are even posters on this site telling that THEY KNOW what I "need" to use my computer. What colossal arrogance!

    I would dearly love to see these folks invest a pile of their money in a swank new Audi or BMW, only to find that it comes with wonderful new "driver protection features" which halt the car and announce that your attempt to drive down a certain street is "denied". After all, the car maker KNOWS which streets you really "need" to go down! The driver is left to finding detailed street maps and trying as many different alternate routes as required before he can drive to his desired destination. The wonderful new Win7 does everything it can to limit you to Microsoft Approved Destinations! Aren't you just loving your new Microsoft Smart Car?

    It is becoming clear that I will need to spend many hours of my time collecting the knowledge and tools to defeat, disable, or bypass these wonderful new attempts by Microsoft to save me from myself. That is, should I want to use my new computer as if it were actually mine to use as I see fit. At some point, the rational choice is to abandon the application of endless amounts of lipstick to this pig, and pursue finding a PC operating system which has not been "improved" right out of being useful. I would be most interested in the views of others as to where they think this point is located.

  2. #2
    2 Star Lounger zigzag3143's Avatar
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    Bob

    As a fellow compu-geezer I do feel your pain. I spent my first week disabling all those enhancements just to get a usable system. On those particularly frustrating days I opt to boot into Ubuntu just for same relief.

    I just wonder, is there any other choice. I must use MS at work and be intimately familiar with it.

    Ken J
    Microsoft Most Valuable Professional-- Windows Expert Consumer 2009---2015
    MCC 2013-2015

    Wanikiyi & Dyami--Team ZigZag3143

  3. #3
    Super Moderator CLiNT's Avatar
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    I don't see this necessarily as an anoyance, but more as a challenge to quickly overcome. There is some very good reasoning
    behind all of this, as the last decades' security environment will attest to. We happen to use the very same operating systems
    the myriad of completely and utterly computer illiterate use all over the world right now, and coming from the same
    company that brought computing to the masses in the first place.
    So if you prefer Mac or Linux, then by all means, use them and spare the whine. I know they're by no means better.

    Spending a week or two getting to know the ins and out's of any new system is not a big deal. As long
    as there are places where information flows and people are engaged in discussion, as there always is.
    Work can get done and shite gets itself sorted out...no thanks to Microsoft's very poor documentation.

    We are inherently lazy creatures constantly looking to be gratified with a quick fix, in reality there are seldom any.
    So deal with it. Suck it up, and move on. Frustration is the toiling of a lessar man,

    but sarcasm's OK.
    DRIVE IMAGING
    Invest a little time and energy in a well thought out BACKUP regimen and you will have minimal down time, and headache.

    Build your own system; get everything you want and nothing you don't.
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  4. #4
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    Thanks Clint!!!

    Yes, Win 7 takes a short while to get accustomed to. MS has finally developed a system that, as Clint states, allows the masses to enjoy their PCs while still maintaining some modicrum of security and stability. Yes, any operating system will need customizing to suit a users needs. Can you imagine how many versions of an OS would be needed to work as anyone would want it to from the box, and the cost. Give me a break. Spend the couple of days getting to know the OS and customizing it the way you want it. The way you want it is most likely totally different than the way I want it, or Clint want's it.

    If you want to abandon ship just because it takes you a couple of days to make the OS work how you need it to work, then do so and stop whinning about it. Then when you finally decide on which OS you want to change to, you can spend your time whinning about how long it takes to finally get the new OS to operate the way you need it to work in that OS forum.
    BACKUP...BACKUP...BACKUP
    Have a Great Day! Ted


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  5. #5
    Super Moderator BATcher's Avatar
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    Sounds like you want a chance to enter data via the toggle switches at the front of a PDP-8 minicomputer - there you have Total Control of the User Experience!
    BATcher

    Time prevents everything happening all at once...

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Deadeye81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Spafford View Post
    My interest is more in the opinions of others about the pros and cons of giving up on Windows 7
    Hey guys,

    Don't you think there are more constructive ways to greet a first time poster in the Lounge than with sarcasm? It would be much more profitable to reply to his statement at the beginning of his post.

    Some of the statements made have been rude and discourteous and as such are a violation of Lounge Rule 9.
    Please clean it up.

    Thanks
    Deadeye81

    "We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give." Sir Winston Churchill

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Deadeye81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Spafford View Post
    Is it time to give up on Windows? . My interest is more in the opinions of others about the pros and cons of giving up on Windows 7
    Hi Bob and welcome to the Lounge!

    As has already been stated by the others here, any move to the latest version of Windows is going to involve some growing pains. However, there are some very good benefits to working with Windows 7 that make it well worthwhile.

    First, it is the best Microsoft OS out of the box. The release of Windows 7 marked the first time since Windows 95 that I have jumped on a new MS OS as soon as it was publicly released to consumers. For all others I have waited for the first service pack. While Windows 7 is less than perfect, it is a great step forward for MS and for Windows users.

    Windows is more secure now than it has ever been. I dare say that if Mac and Linux had equal market shares to Wiindows, their vulnerabilities would become much more obvious to everyone. People determined to break something have always been able to find a way. The only ingredient they need is a good and/or profitable reason to do so.

    I have tried several Linux distros, and for the most part I have enjoyed them, but I would not abandon Windows for any of them. They come with their own set of challenges, and I never liked the emulators required to run some of the Windows software. I found there are just so many things that keep me from jumping to Linux. Where Linux really shines are in some of the great tools for fixing things on Windows installations via LiveCD!

    I have an iMac, and I thoroughly enjoy it. I like it much better than any Linux distro I have used, and while it may offend some Linux lovers, OS X is obviously a cousin to Linux, howbeit a much more polished OS. That said, I find Snow Leopard's Finder file explorer more aggravating to use than any of the Windows Explorers I have used since Windows 98. Again, Windows remains my platform of choice for most chores.

    Some have decided to stick with XP until it goes down in flames. I will probably continue to use XP until 2014 on a dual boot system with Windows 7, but Windows 7 is my primary.
    And I really don't care to comment about Vista.

    As long as Windows remains the standard for the majority of the business and personal computing world, I would never consider abandoning it for something else. Hopefully, the Vista chapter has taught MS some valuable long term lessons, and we will see continual improvements in their flagship OS in the years to come. IMO Windows 7 is a good start toward that becoming a reality.

    Hope this helps.
    Deadeye81

    "We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give." Sir Winston Churchill

  8. #8
    2 Star Lounger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Shepard View Post
    Hey guys,

    Don't you think there are more constructive ways to greet a first time poster in the Lounge than with sarcasm? It would be much more profitable to reply to his statement at the beginning of his post.

    Thanks
    No I don't. Remember he came in looking for an "argument". Ok maybe that's too strong a term, but how else are we to respond? I agree with Clint and the others who say that if you don't like it, leave it. As others have said, Bill Gates brought computers to the masses. I might add that he risked his time and money. He deserves the rewards. I don't like a lot of what Microsoft does but if you play their game, abide by their rules. Way back when, Bill Gates offered IBM the opportunity to take his operating platform and run with it. But they said no thanks. Commodore had the opportunity to rule, but they just wanted the gaming area. Apple said hey, we'll just concentrate on schools and graphics and they lost the masses of the business world. Linux is great but no one entity is totally in charge and as a result it has no single driving force to make it the leading platform. Linux pretty much follows what Microsoft brings to the table. I would love to go to Linux, but it's too hard to learn and not very compatible when compared to Windows.

    BTW... I think we should drop Bill Gates name from Microsoft since he really is no longer is involved except in name only.

  9. #9
    Star Lounger
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    Is it time to give up on Windows? I think it completely depends on what you use Windows for, and if there is an alternative that better suites your needs with a smaller learning curve. From the feedback I've read/heard from others, Windows 7 is the most stable version of Windows they've used, and it's been, for the most part, a positive experience. For others who like to tinker under the hood, it is a little more frustrating.

    A few things to keep in mind though. A few hours spent to learn and tweak the system to your liking is really no more than you would probably spend learning the ins and outs of a new car. And while I see your point with the analogy of the car, I think that it would be fair to say that, 'under the hood' most new cars have grown just as complex as the Windows 7 OS. It would take me hours of research, new tools, and help from others to learn to do all the things on my new car that I could do in minutes on my old car.

    Best of luck!

    Cheers,

    Nathan

  10. #10
    Super Moderator CLiNT's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum Bob, and I Apologies for me bluntness.
    I do have my opinions
    DRIVE IMAGING
    Invest a little time and energy in a well thought out BACKUP regimen and you will have minimal down time, and headache.

    Build your own system; get everything you want and nothing you don't.
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  11. #11
    Super Moderator Deadeye81's Avatar
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    Norm,

    As I posted before, there are more constructive ways to reply. I see Bob's remarks as more frustration than looking for an argument. There are many ways for one to courteously reply with an opinion.
    Deadeye81

    "We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give." Sir Winston Churchill

  12. #12
    2 Star Lounger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Shepard View Post
    Norm,

    As I posted before, there are more constructive ways to reply. I see Bob's remarks as more frustration than looking for an argument. There are many ways for one to courteously reply with an opinion.
    You're right. Like I said it was perhaps too strong a word. And yes I could feel his frustration.

    Bob, my apology.

  13. #13
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    Hi Bob, welcome to the lounge.

    I think what got everyone's dander up was the title as much as anything. We are here attempting to help everyone's experience with Windows (in my case Win 7) be more rewarding and productive. Stating in the title should we just drop windows is counterproductive to what the lounge is all about. And lets face it, any OS requires a learning curve. Bob, I hope you do not abandon ship and jump to another OS because, in my opinion, there is not a better one out there than Win 7, period. I am part of the masses, and although not a novice, my experience and knowledge of windows is entirely self-learned. I do not work in the PC industry, but feel as though I do because of the numbers of people that do ask questions of me when they get into trouble. Yes I like to tinker under the hood. That's why I spend so much time here and in other forums learning what I can.

    Bob, take the time and enjoy the experience. You will love it!
    BACKUP...BACKUP...BACKUP
    Have a Great Day! Ted


    Sony Vaio Laptop, 2.53 GHz Duo Core Intel CPU, 8 GB RAM, 320 GB HD
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    Complete PC Specs: By Speccy

  14. #14
    5 Star Lounger
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    Hi Bob,

    Your rant reminds me of what I felt when I upgraded from one version of Ubuntu to the next and realized that KDE 3.5 was replace by KDE 4. 3.5 was wonderful - I could configure it to work exactly how I wanted and I was very productive in it. KDE 4 was horrible; none of the features that I had come to rely on in 3.5 were present. Things that used to be easy were either difficult or impossible. The KDE developers had somehow managed to out-Vista Vista! I reluctantly moved to Gnome and found it functional but not as good as KDE 3.5. What made it even worse is that when I went on the Linux forums looking for answers, the KDE developers pretty much said that they knew better than the people who were using their computers, and we were stuck with the new functionality because the old functionality was somehow "wrong". Such arrogance! (Moral of the story: arrogance is not limited to Microsoft. And don't get me started on Apple and its dictatorial powers over the iPhone...)

    I too have been using computers forever. My first program was on punch cards which I submitted to a time sharing system. My first "PC" was an Atari 800 (8K RAM! WOW!). I have been using Windows since version 2.11, and NT since 3.1. I started using XP when it was in beta and ditched 2000 on all my systems as soon as XP was released. And I did suffer conversion pains - XP was not 2000 and I gradually changed my thinking and habits to match the new system. I recall my consternation with the "Program Files" and "Documents and Settings" directories and the fights with apps that could not handle spaces in directory names. And there was the issue that XP's text search did not search all files. So I adjusted. I have also used Win7 since the beta. Yes, it is not XP, and thankfully it is not entirely Vista. (But heck, there are even things about Vista that I miss in Win7.) But by learning how to best make use of the features provided in Win7, and by making some configuration changes here and there, Win7 has become very familiar. Now when I go back to XP, which I occasionally do, XP seems so awkward and I get frustrated when features I have come to rely on in Win7 are not present.

    Regarding all of the occurrences of "Denied" etc., I always insist on getting a version of Windows (Professional, Enterprise, Ultimate) in which I can manually change security on files/folders. Changing the ownership and permissions on files and folders gets around most of the "Denied" errors. You also have to recognize that many of the "hidden" directories in your home folder are really just shortcuts so that old programs used to XPs directory layout will still work (so I just ignore those directories). And if the UAC displays really bother you, you can turn UAC off. I usually turn UAC off when I first set up a PC so that it does not annoy me while I install the things I need, but turn it back on after the PC is configured to my liking. Then the UAC popup does not happen all that often.

  15. #15
    5 Star Lounger
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    For those who really want to be "stripped of control of the computers they OWN," get an Apple, and for those who want ultimate control, find one of the hundreds of LINUX distros that fits the user's personality.

    There's a reason Windows has 90-some percent of the world's users...its smack dab right in the middle of both extremes and can do the most things, and yet remain understandable, for the most people.

    Can anyone imagine the outcry if Win 7 were as "security concious" as XP was when it was first released? We live in different times now and security does not equal ease of use, in fact security and restrictions are diametrically opposed to ease of use, though some would think that UAC for instance, could have just a bit of intelligence and stop asking for the 359th time this year if its ok for me to run my Steam app (STUPID UAC!!).

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