Hotmail's social networking busts your privacy

[snixon]

"I'm surprised ... simply CLOSE your account[s]. Close Hotmail, Close all Windows 'Live' anything."

Interesting idea, but NOT possible (for me).

I am the System Administrator at my company, this means that I am in charge of all Licensing. In order to get our Microsoft Licensees (Volume, Open Value, etc.) I was required to create a Windows Live account (note: I do not have a HotMail account). This account is only used to access the Licensee information and communicate with Microsoft, a business function.

It took me over 20 minutes to uncheck everything (there are a lot of "hidden" menus). It really disturbs me that Microsoft took a required business to business account and put it on a social network (which is against our company policy).

Woody thank you for the information.

[BTINAZ]

It isn't just Microsoft doing this. Recently, a friend signed up for a new Facebook page, and I got an invitation to join him. That didn't bother me; what did bother me was that underneath that message was a notice from Facebook suggesting that here were five more people whose Facebook pages I might like to join!
These people have nothing to do with the person whose invitation I received. Two were Doctors (one of whom died 7 months earlier); one was a distant relative with whom I'd been communicating recently; one was a former friend; the fifth was a distant acquaintance, all of whose addresses were in MY email address book-not his. At my request, he emailed Facebook for an explanation. Their response was they obtain info from various sources, including his online address book as well as those of other members, with whom my email address had been cross-referenced!!!
I wrote a letter of outrage to the CEO of Facebook threatening a lawsuit for invasion of privacy because this was my 'personal' email address, not my 'public' one. Having read their Privacy page, once they harvest email addresses from you, they keep them forever; and there is NO WAY to have them removed... Closing his account does not delete anything from their files.
My friend canceled his Facebook account, but the damage had been done-PERMANENTLY.
Now, I may have to change my personal email address because of their policies unless public outcry forces them to permit email addresses to be removed from one's profile.
Is anyone out there as angry about this as I am? If so, maybe we can create an atmosphere for change...

[Dick-Y]

Having read Woody's article today about Microsoft spewing personal info. all over the web, I went to Preferences and unchecked many of the drop-down options that were making my stuff public. After rebooting I can no longer access my Hotmail account. Instead I get this:
"The Windows Live Network is unavailable from this site for one of the following reasons:
This site may be experiencing a problem
The site may not be a member of the Windows Live Network
You can:
You can sign in or sign up at other sites on the Windows Live Network, or try again later at this site."

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can get back my Hotmail account?

Thank you,
Dick

[mjflynt]

It isn't just Microsoft doing this. Recently, a friend signed up for a new Facebook page, and I got an invitation to join him. That didn't bother me; what did bother me was that underneath that message was a notice from Facebook suggesting that here were five more people whose Facebook pages I might like to join!
These people have nothing to do with the person whose invitation I received. Two were Doctors (one of whom died 7 months earlier); one was a distant relative with whom I'd been communicating recently; one was a former friend; the fifth was a distant acquaintance, all of whose addresses were in MY email address book-not his. At my request, he emailed Facebook for an explanation. Their response was they obtain info from various sources, including his online address book as well as those of other members, with whom my email address had been cross-referenced!!!
I wrote a letter of outrage to the CEO of Facebook threatening a lawsuit for invasion of privacy because this was my 'personal' email address, not my 'public' one. Having read their Privacy page, once they harvest email addresses from you, they keep them forever; and there is NO WAY to have them removed... Closing his account does not delete anything from their files.
My friend canceled his Facebook account, but the damage had been done-PERMANENTLY.
Now, I may have to change my personal email address because of their policies unless public outcry forces them to permit email addresses to be removed from one's profile.
Is anyone out there as angry about this as I am? If so, maybe we can create an atmosphere for change...

Follow the instructions here to remove the retained email addresses. This is something to get upset about!
http://www.facebook.com/contact_impo...ve_uploads.php

[pilotart]

I have used hotmail for over ten years, never used WM at all. (I Also don't bother with FaceBook or Twitter .)

All that was there when I went and signed in to my account (I did have to temporarily allow 'wlxrs.com' for scripts using Woody's Link) was this:
__________________________________________________ ________
"Suggestions for your network

These are people in your contact list. If you add them to your network...."

Just four, These were:
YAHOO! GROUPS, exciteMail excite, Pratt&Whitney Canada and one individual's name that I did not recognise.

It has been years since I had any contact with any of the above.

I do have many, many real people on my Contact List and was happy not to see any ot them.

Below the 'Suggestions...." was an empty Box called "notes" and I was able to turn that off with one click, whatever that was.

Now, after Hotmail discontinued the Outlook, Outlook Express and Entourage Service in August '09, I did install the "Windows Live Hotmail" Service and they imported All my Contacts (with my permission) to enable viewing other email accounts within WLH.

(Only) big problem there was where other email services can be set to leave downloaded emails on the server for a few days (I have several portable systems, not online all the time) WLH could not and would not 'leave them on the server';

thus another portable would no longer get the emails downloaded into WLH.

I should have been Ok if I had just limited WLH to my hotmail only, but I just don't use WLH at all now.

Since I don't need WLH, I am quite pleased with my hotmail service and have never had any other problem with it.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________

You want to talk about a Real PITA Free Email Service, try exciteMail, I would have to Scan (and remove a lot) with EVERY VISIT, only solution was to visit from inside a Sandbox and finally gave them up completely, several years ago. They required your Browser to be completely wide open for any sort of attack, or they would not allow you access to your account.

Art

[artcord]

To me both Messenger and Hotmail are more trouble than they are worth so did the simplest thing....UNINSTALLED. If iIeed another e-mail client I'll use gmail.

Art Cordingley

[Drovers Dog]

This may be a little off the exact Topic, but I think it is Topical and shows the Dangers of having "Privacy" compromised like this Topic is all about.

$1 million uSocial.net internet tycoon is bored in Brisbane

* Alex Dickinson
* From: The Courier-Mail

Leon Hill

Internet tycoon uSocial.net founder Leon Hill has become a millionaire from his inner-city unit. Picture: Bruce Long Source: The Courier-Mail

AFTER beating legal threats from internet giants Twitter and Facebook, Brisbane's latest Generation Y millionaire is making plans for early retirement.

Leon Hill, founder of uSocial.net, enraged the social networking sites last year after developing a service that sells Twitter followers and Facebook fans.

Business has skyrocketed in the past six months for the 25-year-old entrepreneur, who offers 1000 Facebook fans for $197 or up to 5000 fans for $727.

More than 1000 Twitter followers costs $87.

Facebook and Twitter hired lawyers to aggressively pursue uSocial.net but have recently ceased all action because, according to its founder, he was "doing nothing illegal". Now "semi-retired", Mr Hill, who left school at 16, is living the dream.

After raking in more than $500,000 already this year, and with $1 million worth of business assets, he says his only worry is boredom.

Link to it http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/m...-1225858076946

It seems like "Users Beware?"

Ray.

[bdb]

Beyond the personal privacy issues which you highlight, I have to consider the workplace privacy issues (and not just that someone's non-work-safe info will pop up on a web page).

It seems that you are saying that if someone in a business were to IM someone else, that information could be blatantly posted for others to see. Think about a confidential client list.

Additionally, I work in an area that answers questions and the transactions are protected by law. Now if someone should IM me with a request for help, the world can know they are on my client list ?

Admittedly, I never thought IM was a safe form of communications. I usually found that questions posed by IM would quickly move to another medium. At the same time, I know many in my profession who have attempted to provide more detailed services by IM.

But now it looks like I should look for a way to disable IM from all computers in the organization.

[Woody]

B Blansit -

The contents of the IM is NOT being broadcast. However, the fact that you have added a person to your IM buddy list can be broadcast. That fact can appear whenever someone currently on your buddy list logs on to check their Hotmail.

[Woody]

Interesting discussion about Facebook's privacy busting:

Schumer Urges FTC: Set Social Networking Guidelines

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_1...45-501465.html

[Drovers Dog]

It was an interesting thing to see, Woody.

Ray

[Drovers Dog]

It was an interesting thing to see, Woody. But to remove IM from a System is IMPOSSIBLE under Windows? It is Default, so Windows screwed up again? Just try to REMOVE Windows Messenger, and even Windows Explorer, and Outlook Express, they work Hand in Glove. When you have FireFox installed as Default and Thunderbird as Default Try it and see on a single Machine? You will be amazed? Now try it on a Network?

Once you Delete, Windows automaticatly Backs it up. On reboot. Even if you turn off System Restore? Go think about that?

Aw, Mic$oft, yet just another Giltch that you have to correct? This one could just Destroy You. Simply because ITs can not remove IM from their Systems, because it is not allowed, unless different Rules apply? Then Mic$oft has to answer towards why?

You really hit the Nerve, Mate.

Ray

[CLiNT]

I was alittle concerned after reading the article, so I whent to my Hotmail [Windows Live Mail] account to see what was actually showing. I found that all of these settings were on by default, fortunately there was nothing there to show, as I don't do social networking or IM.


I've had this account for the last 5 years and it's been rock sold reliable with very little spam, considering how extensively I use it. It's not a big deal to dig in and remove feature sets I want nothing to do with, but many of them should probably be off by default, for privacy sake.
And it would have been nice to know this before now. I guess I should log in more often.

All said, I haven't noticed any changes.

[Klatu240]

I am not sure how I got to the page... I was just trying to see and opt-out of all the categories and options and to eliminate (or, at minimum, severely limit) the info that was available under any circumstances. At any rate, I believe that this page will allow setting ("opting out") of multiple categories/options. Hope this works and hope it helps others, too. URL: http://cid-c492d977db9896a4.profile....le.live.com%2f

[gregsedwards]

Greg -

What you say is absolutely correct. (Okay, I take exception to the "obviously biased" jab, but factually you're quite right.)

Still, I don't agree. There are two underlying problems. First, the information that's shared has been massaged, and in some cases it's massaged incorrectly - thus the link to a lady I've never even heard of, as described in the article. Second, I was never made aware of the possibility that stuff I wrote in a specific, limited context could suddenly appear on the Hotmail login page of someone I briefly IMd six months previously.

I'm not a casual end-user. I didn't understand the options because they were never presented to me. I still don't understand the options because Microsoft won't explain how it gets the contacts list, or where and how it mashes the displayed information. And never, in my wildest dreams, would I have thought that MS would harvest my posts in a very narrowly defined context and broadcast them to everybody and his brother.

Woody,

Thanks for your personal reply. Sorry about the "obviously biased" jab. As I said, I'm a big fan of yours but also of Windows Live (a Windows Live MVP, actually), so I sort of took it personally that you were calling my baby ugly. With a few days to cool off, I have some much needed perspective. I'm still not quite sure what you mean by "massaged;" information shared through WL social avenues is simply consolidated into a feed that does what its name entails, it shows you what's new with your network. I looked again at your screen shot, and here's my armchair analysis:



First, that's a shot of your What's New with Your Network feed shown on the Hotmail Today page (also on the WL Home page at http://www.live.com ). It represents what others in your network are sharing with you, not what you're sharing with anyone else. You're being allowed to see it because they chose to share it with people in their network, and that includes you. Furthermore, Kriss, M...@hotmail.de, and woody leonard (an alternate profile of yours, I presume) are all members of your network. That's more than just a casual contact in your Hotmail address book, BTW. These are folks who've been actively invited into or asked to join your WL network. To my knowledge, there's no option to automatically accept network invites. Inviting someone to chat via Messenger does not necessarily add them to your WL network either, unless you click the wrong option when accepting the chat request. In fairness, perhaps Microsoft should be a little more obvious about what adding someone to your WL Network actually means. I suppose they could have a prompt that says "are you sure?", then another that says "are you really sure?", and a final prompt that says "did you ask your mom first?"

Finally regarding the comment that you left on Kim's PDF file (BTW, you're seeing your own comments because you have two WL profiles that are in each other's network, which can be quite confusing), please realize that this is a public comment left on a (presumably) public SkyDrive file, much like a comment on someone's blog. If it is indeed a publicly shared file and I had the page's URL, then I could see that comment right now on the SkyDrive page, along with all the other comments left by individuals regardless of network affiliation. All the What's New feed is doing is aggregating updates that others have chosen to share with you, based on your relationship with them and your choice to consume those types of updates.

You say the options were never presented to you. Hmm. Well, I'm pretty sure I received several e-mail notices from Microsoft about the changes, and the first time I logged into WL, I received several pop-up notifications. There's also a Help link on every page with a complete explanation of how it all works. You're right that Microsoft has done a poor job of really selling its end-users on the value of WL as a complete service. Even we Microsoft junkies are frequently surprised by elements of the service we don't use regularly. If you trace the evolution of Windows Live, though, you'll find it's because the service was compiled from disparate projects, some more mature than others, without a real sense of direction or cohesion for much of the last 5 years. Rather than explaining what WL is all about, Microsoft has been content to allow its user base (many of whom were grandfathered in from Hotmail) to just cherry pick the parts of the service the were comfortable using, instead of rolling out a completely new service and asking folks to join all over again. Maybe you're right that some kind of global "kill switch" would be a good idea, but I'd rather people get to know what's available via Windows Live before they decide to fight some social windmill in their minds.

I take exception with the commenters who want to discount the notion of social networking as some kind of herald of the apocalypse or a waste of time. Twenty years ago, I'm sure their types said the same things about e-mail and the World Wide Web. As we've since learned, it's all about how you use it. I rather like the idea of the multiple integration points, many of which are social, to engage my network more deeply. Rather than pushing a bunch of links and info on people via email like a spammer, I like the ability to share something interesting on my blog or SkyDrive and have others notified via RSS, WL alerts, or yes, their own What's New with my Network feed...however they choose to consume my content. I like to be able to consolidate things I'm doing all over the Interwebs, from Twitter, to Facebook, to YouTube, to Flickr, to Yelp!, into one convenient feed that my friends (i.e., the people I actively invited into my network) can see in one big stream.