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  1. #1
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    Hello All,
    In my new experiment testing Windows 7 \ 64, running without any "P \ U's" ( Patches or Updates ) and using Norton and Malwarebytes for Security ( Norton Internet security 2011 and the "pay for" version of Malwarebytes ( flash scanning capability ) And the reverse Windows 7 \ 64 all patches and updates ( P \ U's ). The original OS was a stripped out Windows 7 \ 64 OS , (clean install no MS ) with all my programs installed and working. Imaged that OS for safekeeping and proceeded to install all the MS stuff. I have the following information .... remember that i am only the messenger here, and the facts are what they are. see screen shots. the first one shows 55 updates at 151 to 156 MB's total...
    1. I then decided to only install the "system updates" (non security) 23 of the 55 see next screen shot
    2. Next was to install the rest, this time the remainder "security" type. resulting in the last comparison.
    3. Bottom line is that the 151 to 156 MB's is a total load of MS Blah Blah,actually coming in around almost 3.0 GB ( see last screen shot of the starting OS numbers ) ...Some one in MS should take a "wippin " for such an outrageous lie.However I'm not all that surprised, my Vista experiment now a year old netted the same type of results. Except that for a years worth of the "MS" P \ U's resulted in almost doubling my "stripped out" Vista OS ... I think that MS should be more forthcoming in there number estimates... But am not holding my breath ... just don't do that "P\U " thing any more... Oh.... and yes my Vista is still A-OK and no problems. I will update my results as time goes on ...that is unless someone "disappears me" ... Placing my new and improved "woopin helmet" on now Regards Fred
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator BATcher's Avatar
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    Fred - it would be brilliant if you could make a two-sentence summary of your post for the cryptographically-challenged among us!
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BATcher View Post
    Fred - it would be brilliant if you could make a two-sentence summary of your post for the cryptographically-challenged among us!
    BATcher,
    Hello..... Ok.... Guess that I'm too close to the data that all makes sense to me... here goes
    1. Start @ windows 7 \64 21.297 GB (no P \ U's )
    2. Installed some of the updates (P \ U's ) Non security type 23 .. result....22.251.6 GB
    3 .Installed the rest "Security type" Result now ...24.054GB
    4 .So much for the 55 "Important" updates 151.8 to 156.5 MB
    Hope this now makes more sense..... MS ...lies about how much "bloat" installing there "P\ U's" add to your OS. Regards Fred
    PlainFred

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    I think Fred is confirming that MS misleads about size when it says the download is 156MB and then MS fails to say that the install will take up 3GB of your hard drive.

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    There is another possible explanation - the updates as installed actually add only the advertised disk space. But that advertised disk space does not take into account the size of the installation files (usually a packed zip file, and its unpacked contents. The unpacked contents are usually much larger than the apps they are installing. You can usually find all of this crud in you TEMP directory (c:\users\xxx\appdata\local\temp. There is also a c:\windows\temp directory that gets filled up with this crud.

    Then add to that the space used by System Restore. I'm not sure how clever Update is - if it is real clever it creates one restore point and installs all of the updates. If it is not so clever it leaves it up to the individual installs, in which case you could have some serious Restore Point bloat if you have not reduced the amount of disk space allowed for restore points. And a restore point will take up a significantly larger amount of disk space than the update takes.

    Finally, there is the c:/windows/winsxs directory. This directory grows by leaps and bounds as it maintains various versions of files (I think to solve the DLL hell issue from earlier versions of Windows, google "winsxs" to learn more). [Actually, I'm surprised they chose that for the name - try reading the full path name out loud... ]

    Those are the areas that I know of that cause disk bloat, and the simple act running your PC causes the sizes of those directories to expand. So MS is not necessarily lying, they just are not telling you the whole truth. And besides, no matter how much effort they would take to estimate the additional bloat possible in those other directories, it can vary significantly from user to user.

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    The size expressed in Windows Update is the size of the files to be downloaded. Those files are compressed and have installation software included that is not kept after the patch is installed. This is not false advertising as this file size has NEVER expressed the install size. The size is given only to help those who may be on a slow connection or have a limited amount of download capability per month.

    Because of the Winsxs folder the exact size added to the Windows installation is difficult to determine. There are many pages that discuss the WinSXS folder. See the following:

    Windows Club - secrets of Windows 7 Winsxs folder (NOTE: annoying music on this page).
    Disk Space - Engineering Windows 7 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs
    What is the WinSXS directory & why is it so large?

    I'm not sure why Microsoft is being singled out here other than it is Microsoft and they are an easy target. Anytime you download and install software the size quoted when you begin the download is just the size of the downloaded file not the installed size. By the logic of the OP, all software vendors should be taken to task for outrageous lies.

    Joe
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    There's also the fact that I at least found Tree Size to be quite inaccurate when compared to Windows own reconning of disk space occupied. Or maybe it was Windows that was inaccurate. Either way, I'm not losing any sleep over it.

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    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    The \Windows\Temp folder can be emptied. If one uses MSE, it occaissionally has a file(s) "in use" in the Temp folder, and I leave those.

    The folder used by Windows Update can be deleted simply by stopping the Windows Update service, right-click the \Windows\SoftwareDistribution folder and select delete. Then start the Windows Update service, the folder and its subfolders get rebuilt (but are empty), and one is ready for the next Patch Tuesday.

    Also bear in mind that many updates replace older files, and the older files are often deleted/overwritten in the process.

    I have Update set to let me know about undates but let me choose when and whether to install them. I've installed nearly all of them since last October, and yet my free space in my C: drive (which is 20GB, contains only Windows, no Program Files folder, no Users folder, no ProgramData folder) remains pretty much the same, because I routinely clean out the temporary files, and delete the SoftwareDistribution folder a week or so after Patch Tuesday.

    Also, isolating Windows in its own partition makes it quite simple to determine its size. And while the Winsxs folder does grow, it can also shrink! (I know the Vista-related WinSxS article says it only grows, but I also know from experience that mine grows and shrinks; go figure!) It is quite dynamic.

    I don't use System Restore, and keep it turned off on all drives, so I have no accumulation of System Restore points; it maintains an empty folder on all drives, but that amounts to only one allocation unit.

    Routine maintenance is all that is really necessary.

    Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Johnson2191 View Post
    You can usually find all of this crud in you TEMP directory (c:\users\xxx\appdata\local\temp. There is also a c:\windows\temp directory that gets filled up with this crud.
    Then add to that the space used by System Restore.

    So MS is not necessarily lying, they just are not telling you the whole truth.
    Peter,
    Hello..... In my experiment the "Temp files " were deleted from all examples.

    "System Restore " is switched off as i use Acronis to get me out of trouble when needed, as "System Restore should actually be named "System Restore Maybe...Sometime"

    Question : When someone "hides", "obscures" , "intentionally misleads" something (in this case facts ) in order to advance a particular agenda..... It's called...."Jeopardy" music playing in the background ..... Buzzz... Fred for a chance to move to the next round.... What is Lying ... CORRECT!
    PlainFred

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP View Post
    By the logic of the OP, all software vendors should be taken to task for outrageous lies.
    Joe,
    Hello.... Yes you are correct "they all should". In all my many program downloads i have never encountered such absolute nonsense as far as the numbers are concerned . And I'm actually surprised that "MS" doesn't include the words "teeny weeny" or " itsy bitsy " on their Microsoft Update screen instead of what they should have.... ALL ABOARD..... Next stop BLOATVILLE !
    Regards Fred
    PlainFred

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byron Tarbox View Post
    There's also the fact that I at least found Tree Size to be quite inaccurate when compared to Windows own reconning of disk space occupied. Or maybe it was Windows that was inaccurate. Either way, I'm not losing any sleep over it.
    Byron,
    Hello.....Just to be fair..... Regards Fred
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  12. #12
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred J Usack View Post
    In my experiment the "Temp files " were deleted from all examples.
    Did you also delete the \Windows\SoftwareDistribution folder? Those are all "temp" files, as well.
    Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware.
    Unleash Windows

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred J Usack View Post
    Yes you are correct "they all should". In all my many program downloads i have never encountered such absolute nonsense as far as the numbers are concerned . And I'm actually surprised that "MS" doesn't include the words "teeny weeny" or " itsy bitsy " on their Microsoft Update screen instead of what they should have
    I see that quite regularly. The download sizes stated seldom have anything to do with installed size. Even more so today when more and more vendors use a small installer program that you download and run. Then the actual size of the program you download for installation is very much larger but somewhat hidden by the installer. Since I do not have to worry about download limits on any of my internet access accounts I only pay attention to the download size to get a rough idea of the amount of time it will take.

    Joe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred J Usack View Post
    Byron,
    Hello.....Just to be fair.....
    Just to be fair how about a more in depth analysis of the disk uage than the high level "Tree Size" used earlier. How about the folders under the "Windows" folder? That is where almost all of the size change occurred.

    Joe
    Joe

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    Drive C (1st screen cap) 22,251.6 MB used right? If I'm reading it correctly anyway. That is 21.73 Gigs right? Well the reported size of free space at the bottom is 214 Gigs. 214+21.73=235.73 Gigs. Reported size of the disk = 232 Gigs.

    JoeP made my point before I could. You are trying to measure the level of electricity in a storm with a kite, a string and a key.

    p.s. Just checked out my TreeSize Free on the C:\ drive and its 14.4 GB off from what the Windows reported size is at the bottom. The error is probably derived from the areas where access is denied but that still proves the point in that TreeSize is not allowed to go everywhere and account for everything, therefore it is innately inaccurate. Mine is underreporting by 14.4 Gigs whereas yours looks like it is overreporting by 3.7 gigs to me.

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