Taking stock of the Windows 8 versions

[tbar]

I'm very disappointed that WMC will be an add on at an additional cost. I use it on 3 of my Win 7 machines to record and play back cable. Having to upgrade all of them to Pro (they are all run Win 7 Professional for remote desktop ) and then purchase Media Center means I will probably keep 7.

[bobprimak]

I'm very disappointed that WMC will be an add on at an additional cost. I use it on 3 of my Win 7 machines to record and play back cable. Having to upgrade all of them to Pro (they are all run Win 7 Professional for remote desktop ) and then purchase Media Center means I will probably keep 7.

VLC Player plus CDBurnerXP should do everything, except that DVD playback of commercial releases may require a codec plugin for VLC Player. For CDBurnerXP, choose either 32-bit or 64-bit, but make sure you are on the drop-down link for More Download Options, because you will want the Minimal Installer (without OpenCandy adware). OpenCandy explained.

While CDBurnerXP may not be offered as a Metro App, I am confident that VLC Player will be offered in that API format.

[Medico]

I apologize ahead of time if this rant offends anyone!

For you Mac users, go ahead and join the other 3 or 4% or so of the world and use your Mac's, whatever OS flavor. Oh by the way, even with the measly 3 or 4% or so of the total PC's produced there was recently a HUGE virus outbreak (Flashback Outbreak) hitting the impervious Mac's. I'm a little tired of Mac users coming to the Windows Secrets Lounge and extoling the virtues of Macs. If they are so great why are they used by so few?

End Rant!

Like Bob, I do not yet know If I will upgrade to Win 8. I presently have Win 7 on all 3 of our family PC's and am quite satisfied with it. I have been testing Win 8 CP in a dual boot scenario with my Win 7 Ultimate on my laptop and spend most of my time in Win 8 CP for now. When Win 8 RP is released in early June I will clean install it over Win 8 CP and test it as well.

For the average user, Win 8 will be more than sufficient. With a couple of add ons for those that like to watch DVD's on their PC's (not me, that's what my home theater is for). Win 8 Pro is geared more for business users. I suspect that MS will bow to pressure and allow media center in both versions of Win 8, but who knows. I rarely use it now.

For the average desktop user, most time will be spent on the Win 8 desktop rather than in the Metro UI. I go to the Metro UI once in a blue moon now and do not anticipate any further usage in future releases.

The Win 8 interface is very customizable just as all versions of Windows is. You make it to suit you. Just read the various threads in the Win 8 Forum. Before making blanket statements about it, test it yourself. Just do NOT replace your released OS for this as yet unfinished, time limited beta OS.

[tbar]

VLC Player plus CDBurnerXP should do everything, except that DVD playback of commercial releases may require a codec plugin for VLC Player. For CDBurnerXP, choose either 32-bit or 64-bit, but make sure you are on the drop-down link for More Download Options, because you will want the Minimal Installer (without OpenCandy adware). OpenCandy explained.

While CDBurnerXP may not be offered as a Metro App, I am confident that VLC Player will be offered in that API format.

The only computer based app that can record and play back copy protected TV is WMC. There are plenty of apps that can play back unprotected content.

[bobprimak]

The only computer based app that can record and play back copy protected TV is WMC. There are plenty of apps that can play back unprotected content.

Where did you get that information? VLC Player can play back commercial DVDs for any Region, provided you have the plug-ins for the required codecs (and these are included for free). Read HERE :

"The two software libraries that enable DVD and Blu-ray playback in VLC are libdvdcss and libaacs ... "

So the codecs are included with VLC Player.

Why can't your commercial DVD collection be played in VLC Player? This could be a Windows restriction, or a manufacturer's hardware restriction. But it is not a limitation of VLC Player.

[tbar]

I said "The only computer based app that can record and play back copy protected TV is WMC" not DVD's. I can rip, decrypt and play back DVD's with a lot of applications and a lot of platforms. The limitation is recorded TV (and Blu-Ray.) A lot of cable channels are broadcast with copy protection and the only "approved" recording and playback computer based method is Win7 and WMC. I would love if there was another method that gives me full control of how I record my programs and play them back but as of now Win7 is the only way.

[bobprimak]

I said "The only computer based app that can record and play back copy protected TV is WMC" not DVD's. I can rip, decrypt and play back DVD's with a lot of applications and a lot of platforms. The limitation is recorded TV (and Blu-Ray.) A lot of cable channels are broadcast with copy protection and the only "approved" recording and playback computer based method is Win7 and WMC. I would love if there was another method that gives me full control of how I record my programs and play them back but as of now Win7 is the only way.

Sorry about the misread. In the US, commercial TV broadcasts are protected by copyright and other Rights Management laws. You do not have the legal right to record and play back digital commercial broadcasts, let alone rip or redistribute them. That kind of activity is what brought down Mega Upload, and is threatening to close down Sidereel.

[tbar]

Sorry about the misread. In the US, commercial TV broadcasts are protected by copyright and other Rights Management laws. You do not have the legal right to record and play back digital commercial broadcasts, let alone rip or redistribute them. That kind of activity is what brought down Mega Upload, and is threatening to close down Sidereel.

I live in the US. While TV broadcasts are copyrighted and some digital channels have copy protection enabled (the last part is mostly up to the cable company) it is not illegal to record, play back , transfer them to another device and many other fair uses. People have been doing that for years with VCR's. It doesn't sound like you are familiar with analog and digital TV tuners. They have been around for years and are perfectly legal. Recently digital cable card devices have come out. These are also legal. They allow you to rent a cable card from your cable company, plug them into your cable card device and record and play back every channel you receive. Unfortunately for general purpose computer systems only Windows 7 has been authorized by Cable Labs to do that for for copy protected broadcasts. Those types of broadcasts are also limited so that you can only play them back on the computer you recorded them on.

Within Windows 7 you need to use Windows Media Center to do these recordings and for the most part play back. With W8 you then have to pay extra for WMC which was my original argument. Also, for my own personal setup I use Windows Home Server to serve out my recordings. I can play back everything I record except for the copy protected broadcasts to any computer in my house. Again, all perfectly legal.

[bobprimak]

VCRs are a legacy device, covered by the BetaMax Case (which the US Courts have since modified considerably). Digital recordings are covered by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) which is far more restrictive. I do not carry a lawyer in my vest pocket, but transferring materials from a Cable Company DVR to any other device may or may not be a violation of the Company's Terms of Service. What Windows allows or facilitates is up to Microsoft's sole discretion, and that Company has been taking increasingly stringent steps to avoid facilitating copyright violations.

The reason for Media Center not being included in Windows 8 seems to me to be as much a matter of keeping x86 and x64 Legacy Apps out of the OS as it is a matter of generating a revenue stream, but I am not pleased with Microsoft's decision to make WMP a paid add-on. Nor am I happy about MS's (apparent) decision to charge a subscription for user access to their App Store. But MS can do whatever they choose to do, within anti-trust limits. Again, I do not carry a lawyer in my vest pocket, so I do not pass judgment on any fine points of US laws.

In all of my posts in this thread, I am only pointing out that if something having to do with digital recording, playback or copying is being limited or prevented, there may be reasons for this which go beyond a Company seeking to generate new revenue streams. Just maybe. My non-legal opinion only.

If we are no longer talking about DVD playback being removed from Windows 8, we probably should start a new thread to deal with TV broadcasts. This thread is supposed to be about Windows 8 removing DVD playback capabilities from the Consumer and RT versions of the OS.

[BruceR]

If we are no longer talking about DVD playback being removed from Windows 8, we probably should start a new thread to deal with TV broadcasts. This thread is supposed to be about Windows 8 removing DVD playback capabilities from the Consumer and RT versions of the OS.

You were the first to mention DVD playback in this thread, in response to a comment about TV broadcasts.

but I am not pleased with Microsoft's decision to make WMP a paid add-on.

WMP or WMC?


Bruce

[bobprimak]

@BruceR --


Actually, Woody's article was about the loss of DVD playback capabilities in Windows 8. And the point about WMP vs. WMC is moot, as both are to become paid add-ons. (WMP will be available only through the MS App Store, which has a subscription just to enter the virtual door.) Again, this was referenced or stated in Woody's original article, and in related posts at AskWood.com and Infoworld TechWatch. TV recording and playback entered into this thread as a side-issue, as I read things.

Update: In this post, I got confused between different Woody Leonhard postings at different sites. Sorry.

[BruceR]

@BruceR --

Actually, Woody's article was about the loss of DVD playback capabilities in Windows 8.

@bobprimak--

Actually, Woody's article (in Windows Secrets, linked at the top of this thread) didn't mention DVD playback at all.

And the point about WMP vs. WMC is moot, as both are to become paid add-ons. (WMP will be available only through the MS App Store, which has a subscription just to enter the virtual door.)
Again, this was referenced or stated in Woody's original article, and in related posts at AskWood.com and Infoworld TechWatch.

Again, Woody only mentioned Windows Media Player lately at InfoWorld Tech Watch to say, "Windows Media Player will continue to be available in all [Windows 8] editions,"

TV recording and playback entered into this thread as a side-issue, as I read things.

The comment about having to pay extra for Windows Media Center was directly relevant to this article; DVD playback was the side-issue you introduced to this thread.


Bruce

[bobprimak]

@BruceR --

In Post#13 I was only mentioning Windows Media Center as a paid add-on to Windows 8 Pro.

In Post#17, I added DVD playback, which actually was the concern of a different Lounge thread from about the same time period as this thread.

So you are right as to when DVD playback was first mentioned, and it was in my post, as an aside about VLC Player being available as a WMP or Media Center alternative, paired with CD Burner XP. The DVD playback issue was then taken up in at least one other post. TV recording and playback seem to have been part of a different Lounge thread where I was posting in the same time period. Sometimes I forget how much I jump around amongst the various threads here in the Lounge.

Be all of this as it may, let's agree that ALL changes to DVD playback, Media recording and playback, the features of Windows Media Player, and the Media Center, have a place in this thread, as all are closely related. And all may affect users' willingness to adopt various versions of Windows 8. On these issues, I think there is much to be discovered as Microsoft moves towards a Release Preview, and all of these sub-topics should be considered together after all. Would that be OK with you?

By the way, have you seen these postings from Woody?

http://www.askwoody.com/page/3/


Windows 8 won't play DVDs
Posted on May 7th, 2012 at 23:38 woody. 7 comments.

Check my math, but as best I can tell, we lost DVD playing capability because the codec costs about 6 cents per copy of Windows.

InfoWorld Tech Watch.

Uncategorized

[BruceR]

@BruceR --

In Post#13 I was only mentioning Windows Media Center as a paid add-on to Windows 8 Pro.

In Post#17, I added DVD playback, which actually was the concern of a different Lounge thread from about the same time period as this thread.

So you are right as to when DVD playback was first mentioned, and it was in my post, as an aside about VLC Player being available as a WMP or Media Center alternative, paired with CD Burner XP. The DVD playback issue was then taken up in at least one other post. TV recording and playback seem to have been part of a different Lounge thread where I was posting in the same time period. Sometimes I forget how much I jump around amongst the various threads here in the Lounge.

Be all of this as it may, let's agree that ALL changes to DVD playback, Media recording and playback, the features of Windows Media Player, and the Media Center, have a place in this thread, as all are closely related. And all may affect users' willingness to adopt various versions of Windows 8. On these issues, I think there is much to be discovered as Microsoft moves towards a Release Preview, and all of these sub-topics should be considered together after all. Would that be OK with you?

Sure; I was only pointing out that the TV stuff you said didn't belong here was more on-topic than the DVD stuff which you said did belong here.

By the way, have you seen these postings from Woody?

http://www.askwoody.com/page/3/


Windows 8 won't play DVDs
Posted on May 7th, 2012 at 23:38 woody. 7 comments.

Yes, that's the same article I just linked to; where Woody quotes Microsoft as saying that WMP will be available in all versions of Windows 8.

Did you see the response at InfoWorld Tech Watch which asked what you were smoking about your comment that Microsoft charges an annual subscription to the app store?

You didn't answer it there, but repeated the app store access fee comment at Woody's site and then here.

What's your source for a Microsoft annual subscription charge?

Check my math, but as best I can tell, we lost DVD playing capability because the codec costs about 6 cents per copy of Windows.

InfoWorld Tech Watch.

Uncategorized

Any idea how Woody gets from 2 dollars per MPEG-2 codec to 6 cents per Windows copy? I can't even find any math to check.


Bruce

[bobprimak]

As for the App Store access fee, see the Microsoft MSDN posting I uncovered while doing (belatedly) my own research into the App Store Access Fee (below).

As to people asking what I am smoking, that is the type of language I wish folks would avoid online. Especially here in the Lounge.

As relates to DVD playback being missing from Windows 8 Release Preview, even at $2.00 per codec, this is only a small fraction of the cost of a Windows 8 license, yes? I think Woody has a point that there must be some additional motives on Microsoft's part. Does that seem reasonable?

I just went to MSDN and looked over the DEVELOPER terms. I think the rumor about an end-user access fee was indeed mistaken. It is not the CONSUMER who will pay for access to the App Store. It is the App DEVELOPERS who will pay a Registration Fee for posting an App at the Store:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/hh852650.aspx

Best Economics

Windows 8 represents the single biggest platform opportunity available, and business terms of the Windows Store represent a developer-first point of view. The registration fee for individuals is $49 USD, with a $99 USD fee for companies. The revenue share base is 70%, but when an app achieves $25,000 USD in revenue—aggregated across all sales in every market—that changes to 80% revenue share for the rest of the lifetime of the app.
With access to millions of potential customers around the world, development choices that let you use the skills you already have, rich platform capabilities for building Metro style apps, business terms that maximize your revenue opportunity, and flexible business models for the apps you create, Windows 8 and the Windows Store provide an unprecedented opportunity for you to imagine, build, and sell your apps.
For more information on the economic opportunity of Windows 8, see Making money with your apps.

I will withdraw my comments about user fees in future postings here and elsewhere. This could have been researched before tech wags posted something this alarming, as if end-users would have to pay an access fee. And I could have researched the rumor before posting it. My bad there.

Microsoft also states clearly in the MSDN document that third-party and free Apps (open source) are welcomed in the App Store. There is no vendor lock-in. Good news for all end-users, but not enough to make me like the Metro Interface nor the Apps presented in the Store so far. Of course, the Apps will still be under development long after Windows 8 hits the stores and new devices.

I am downloading the Release Preview now, and hope to test it soon. Then I will re-evaluate my opinions of the Windows 8 Pro interface (Metro and desktop) and the new changes to the Apps and the Store. It is not nice to spread rumors which have little or no basis in fact, and I have been guilty of that offense, it seems.

All of this just goes to show you -- if you want accurate information about Windows 8, it is usually best to go to the source -- Microsoft and its various web sites.