View Poll Results: What should MS do to improve Windows 8?

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  • In Service Pack add Start Menu with Tiles for Taskbar Entries in Far left of Modern UI(see post)

    1 10.00%
  • In Service Pack add Start Menu + option to directly boot to Desktop

    6 60.00%
  • Wait until Windows 9 to make any changes

    1 10.00%
  • Generate a Windows 8 OS with Desktop including Start Menu and no Modern UI Apps/Environment

    4 40.00%
  • Permit Hybrid Applications Desktop/Modern UI

    1 10.00%
  • Enhance Modern UI IE10 to provide full function

    1 10.00%
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  1. #1
    mart44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidO View Post
    [B]Conclusions
    I believe MS will have to return the Start Menu (as above) in a Service Pack (how long will that take April 2013? after they have gone through all the stages)
    The net result will be the Best Windows yet, which satisfies
    a) Desktop users (minimal use of ModernUI) BUT if there is a ModernUI Application which they want to use they can easily do so. Windows 8 has many minor enhancements compared with Windows 7 and these will start to be appreciated by Desktop users.
    b) The Modern UI can continue to be developed and all Windows 8 Users will continue to be potential users, so the incentive to develop applications for this environment will be safeguarded
    I don't think Microsoft should return the Start Button to the current W.8 UI. I'll qualify that by saying that if they do, it should be on a dual UI. One that allows users to go completely to the more traditional Desktop and one that allows those who prefer it to go to an entirely tiled one. I actually like the new UI but the thing I find a little annoying about it is that the Desktop gets in the way. It would be better if there was no Desktop running as well. When programs are closed, the Desktop shows rather than the tiled interface. I overcome that by holding the Windows key down while closing a program but I would be happier if the Desktop wasn't there at all. I'm willing to embrace and get used to the new UI apart from that. Nearly all functions are run from the Start Screen in my set-up now.

    There are a number of programs for bringing back the Windows 7 style menus and Start button to Windows 8. I just wish there was one that provided the opposite function that removed the Desktop from Windows 8. So I'd say that the next Microsoft OS would be good if there was a switchable UI one way or the other so that people could choose between them and never the twain shall meet.

  2. #2
    New Lounger
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    Question What can MS do to make Windows 8 more Acceptable to ALL Users

    Microsoft's Current Position is certainly not an ideal one to go forward from.

    Windows 8 is not selling well, and Microsoft have just replaced the Management Team (Steve Sinofsky has left)

    Their current Modern UI apps are few in number (certainly compared those on Apple) and there does not appear to be a “Must” have killer Application.

    From a Developer’s perspective with the Current Applications being Free or Available for a Nominal cost there is little or no incentive to generate new Applications unless they provide a return in other ways e.g. promote a service or other Business Venture.

    And Desktop users are far from happy (for well documented reasons)

    Start Menu

    If MS reintroduce a Start Menu, do they setup a function to automatically boot to the Desktop?

    If they do they will send a signal saying that they do not believe in the Modern UI Interface and Applications (they really must get a new name for these. ”Touch or Fingertip” Apps/Environment), which may mean that there will never be the Applications Windows 8 needs for it to be a Success.

    Hence any changes must improve the links between the two environments.
    I suggest that
    1. the first Tiles on the ModernUI are
    a) The existing Desktop Tile
    b) Tiles which run the Applications pinned to the Taskbar eg Start Menu being one of them

    2. links to the Modern UI Applications installed on the PC are included in the Start Menu.
    Once setup this works very well, as immediately after reboot, the User can choose Start Menu, Windows Explorer, Browser or any other Taskbar Pinned entries, from the Modern UI, i.e one Mouse click to display the StartMenu which is the same number as required by Start Menus (with direct boot into the Desktop) to display any of these items.

    They could also include an Option which disables Charms etc when the Desktop is displayed.

    The Start Menu should then become the Principal Keyboard/Mouse Access Point to the Applications, WebPages and Files installed on the PC, especially if it was enhanced to Display Menus of Web Favorites and History and permit the Users to define their own Menus so all the Command, WebPages, Files, Folders required by the User to perform individual tasks are displayed on a Menus Dedicated to the Individual Tasks.

    Hybrid Applications
    MS should also permit Developer’s to Develop and Market Hybrid Applications which add a Modern UI interface to an Existing or New Data processing Application. i.e the user can load up the data in the Office and use it on a tablet when travelling around.
    The need for this change is reinforced because the financial case for migrating Mainstream Database Applications to the Windows RT environment is very weak.
    1. The majority of Users have purchased their current software and would need a very strong business reason to buy a new version
    2. The Windows RT environment is very restrictive (no registry access and limited file assess), and ALL programs will have to be rewritten from scratch as the APIs are different, which would be both time consuming and expensive.
    3. Finally MS insist all Modern UI Applications start in 5 seconds rules out most of this type of application

    Internet Browser
    Running Internet Browsers in a Sandbox (or even a virtual system) which reduces the interfaces to the remainder of the PC has a great attraction BUT the Current Modern UI Version of Internet Explorer is too restrictive.
    Currently Modern UI Application versions of companies Web Pages often provide a very restrictive subset of the functionality of their Web Pages. This would not necessarily matter if they were easier to use for the majority of User Transactions but they very rarely do so a full “Touch” based Internet Browser working on largely standard Internet web pages would be useful.

    Conclusions
    I believe MS will have to return the Start Menu (as above) in a Service Pack (how long will that take April 2013? after they have gone through all the stages)
    The net result will be the Best Windows yet, which satisfies
    a) Desktop users (minimal use of ModernUI) BUT if there is a ModernUI Application which they want to use they can easily do so. Windows 8 has many minor enhancements compared with Windows 7 and these will start to be appreciated by Desktop users.
    b) The Modern UI can continue to be developed and all Windows 8 Users will continue to be potential users, so the incentive to develop applications for this environment will be safeguarded

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to DavidO For This Useful Post:

    Medico (2012-11-24)

  4. #3
    New Lounger
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    Interesting comment.

    I did generate a "Metro" StartMenu application which ran in the Modern UI environment (i.e with a Touch based List) It looks just like a Standard Start Menu and it proved perfectly capable of running "Desktop" applications from the "Modern UI" environment. i.e. the user not displaying the Desktop

    There was only one problem MS insist that you can only install Modern UI apps from the Windows Store, and ALL Modern UI Apps must work (without any other any Desktop) dependancies. A Desktop routine (or service) is required to access the Start Menu Shortcuts etc which are not accessable from the Modern UI

    So while I could produce the routine there was no way of distributing and installing it!

    Hence my comment about Hybrid Apps

  5. #4
    New Lounger
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    Mousing to non-existent control is NOT intuitive

    Dear Microsoft:

    Needing to move your mouse to a particular place (e.g. upper right edge of screen) is NOT intuitive when there is no visual clue that doing so will trigger an event. The staff that designed the Win8 installer obviously knew this because of the little video they repeat x2 during the install. Why didn't you listen to their feedback.

    The thought of teaching this to my Mother frightens me. "Click where? My mouse goes off the screen and nothing happens."

    Next time you get in a car LOOK AT THE USER INTERFACE! There are no essential controls that don't exist.

  6. #5
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    My only problem with Win 8 Pro is the Win 8 Style IE 10. The Win 8 Style IE 10 does not allow add-ons such as Last Pass, which is a must for me. I could never remember all the passwords to sign into various sites. We are constantly being told to not reuse PWs in various sites, and to always use difficult to guess (Strong) passwords. After starting more than a few sign-ins, this becomes impossible to remember for most of us, hence the need for a PW manager. I have our PCs set up to always open on the desktop version of IE 10.

    I went to the Win 8 Style IE 10 again last evening, and except for my home pages, I could not sign into any further site. I also hate the way Favorites open in the Win 8 Style IE 10.

    I do use the desktop UI most of the time. Yes I use the Win 8 Style UI for some things, but generally spend most of my times on the desktop. Win 8 Pro works very well with our conventional laptops (no touch capabilities). I just do not see the problems others seem to have with the desktop on conventional PCs. I have installed Classic Shell although I do not open most of my apps from there. I have an app Win 8 Shortcuts Toolbar where I place shortcuts to most of my apps, at least those I access often. I do use Classic Shell to access the CP in menu mode.

    We will see after the Christmas season (yes I still use the word Christmas) how sales of new PCs is going. I suspect sales thus far may be sluggish more due to the economy rather than Win 8. People are keeping their present systems longer rather than replacing them. There are priorities for us "average users" than cause new PCs to slip lower on the priority list. We are keeping our 4 to 5 year old laptops for now rather than replacing them. I have Custom Install Win 8 Pro on both with a format during the installation, and both PCs are working exceedingly well. We both very much like Win 8 Pro.
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  7. #6
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    Agree with you, Clint. I like the dual nature of Windows 8. I have come to enjoy the Metro part of it, and some apps are very interesting. The desktop is the usual Windows desktop, in its best incarnation, so far. There are some usability issues, but they can be dealt with, of course. It's a very good OS.

  8. #7
    Super Moderator CLiNT's Avatar
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    Nothing for me to vote on here.

    I like Windows 8 exactly the way it is.

    I've come to appreciate the clean desktop UI, including the start screen & the Metro apps.

    The lack of a start menu took a little time to adjust to, maybe a week, but after that it' absence is of no consequence.
    It would be far more confusing for someone who is unfamiliar with using a computer in general.

    The only thing I don't have much use for is the "lock" screen, but the way I have the system set up I rarely see it anyway.
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  9. #8
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    I've been using Windows 8 almost exclusively since October 26 (still doing my banking and work-related stuff on my Windows 7 desktop), and I have found no compelling reason to migrate to Windows 8. I don't care for the Start Screen, as the Apps available are pretty lame, and nothing I care to use. New Apps cannot be added except from the Microsoft Store (so far), and there's nothing there that interests me, either. I anticipate that any workhorse apps (Office) that will launch from the Start Screen in the future will be cloud-based, and I have no use for cloud-based computing, either.

    The Apps I do use pop open on the Desktop, so nearly all of my time is spent there. My Windows 7 installation is not standard, and I have had no stability issues with my Windows 7 since I migrated there from XP in early 2010. I've used my setup now on four different PC's/laptops, with consistent results throughout.

    I'll probably migrate this Windows 8 back to a dual-boot setup on my desktop, so I will be able to help my friends and clients who get stuck with Windows 8 on a new PC/laptop, and reclaim my laptop to Windows 7 Ultimate.

    I'll keep Windows 8 handy so that I can piddle with it from time to time and keep it updated, but there is no discernible speed difference over my Windows 7, and it's perceptually difficult to realize improved stability when I already have rock-solid stability. For my daily work and play, I have no reason to leave Windows 7.
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  10. #9
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    Clint,
    You can even disable the lock screen as shown here.
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  11. #10
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    I've come to appreciate the clean desktop UI, including the start screen & the Metro apps.
    Don't know about others but I need some clarification of the quoted. Is there a way to hide all the start screen apps without unpinning them? On any other desktop I could have icon shortcuts to everything there AND hide and reveal them all with a double click on a blank space on the desktop (using Fences). If there isn't, what is clean about a screen full of tiles, some of which may be blinking and scrolling?

    Second point is things can become too clean. Clean in the world of interfaces can't trump usefulness. So if you have nothing pinned to the taskbar, no toolbars, no shorcuts, yes, its clean. Now balance that with usefulness for me so I understand, and, if you're keeping the desktop ultra clean, then don't you have to go to the start screen and bring up all apps just to find, say for example, the calculator?

    So that's where I am; its either not clean at all and slows locating an application or utility because I have rows and rows to scan, or, its way too clean and not very useful because I can't get to the application or utility without going elsewhere. As is, no modifications, so far I'm completely whiffing on how its cleaner and more useful.

  12. #11
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medico View Post
    @bbearren, any time you install an app on the desktop, a tile for that app is added to the Win 8 style Start Screen as well. If you click on those tiles, they will open on the desktop UI.
    Yes, I know. That's basically what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by bbearren View Post
    The Apps I do use pop open on the Desktop, so nearly all of my time is spent there.
    I don't use any of the tiled apps on the Start Screen. I have shortcuts on the desktop for most of the programs/apps that I use. The point is that I don't do anything on the Start Screen, and don't really have any use or need for it.

    If I intended to use Windows 8, I would create shortcuts for everything I use or need on the Desktop, and never see the Start Screen. I use sleep/hibernate rather than shutting down, so I hardly see the Start Screen as it is.

    Windows 8, for me, is no improvement over Windows 7 at all. Why customize Windows 8 to look and feel like Windows 7, when I already have Windows 7 setup like I want it? For me, there are no stability or speed gains at all. In fact the Windows 7 logon screen is much quicker than the Windows 8 logon screen. I'm not referring to the lock screen, that's just one key stroke or mouse click. The Windows 8 logon screen can't read my password as fast as I can type it, but the Windows 7 logon screen can.
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  13. #12
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    It appears the timing issue we have experienced this morning is back, so that some of the posts are out of order. If you are confused by posts that seem to occur after the answer to the post is shown, you are not alone. There is some kind of problem with the timing of the Lounge.
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  14. #13
    New Lounger
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    I personally find it very time consuming to look at a screen of icons especially if they are not in alpha order. (and I have many shortcuts from desktop apps so I delete the lot)

    What is the Problem about just unpinning the applications?

    They are still available using Search (just type in the name). i.e calculator just start typing "calculator" and you will soon find it. Probably after Ca

    If required the links can then be repinned to the Start Menu. or inserted in some of the 3rd party Start Menu Apps

    I do wish MS provide a method of programatically ordering the Start Menu. They encode it to stop you doing that which is not very helpful in a corporate environment where you want 12,000 PC to have the same Start Menu, and your staff to do what they are paid for rather than playing with Windows

  15. #14
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    @bbearren, any time you install an app on the desktop, a tile for that app is added to the Win 8 style Start Screen as well. If you click on those tiles, they will open on the desktop UI. My Start Screen has just a few Win 8 Style App and many more of these apps that open on the desktop. (I have unpinned most of the Win 8 Style app tiles as I do not use them)

    MyWin8StartScreen.jpg

    @DavidO, you can group the tiles any way you wish to on the Start Screen. My screen shot shows my present Start Screen. I could probably remove many of the pinned tiles because I do not generally start them from the Start Screen, but what the heck. I do start the few games from the Start Screen. You can even name the groups.
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  16. #15
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    Everyone has their own interpretation. I have 4 icons on my desktop. Everything else in on the taskbar, including Classic Shell and 2 toolbars I have discussed elsewhere. I think this is much cleaner than the person who has dozens of shortcuts on their desktop. I spend the majority of my time on the desktop with my conventional laptop and can find everything quickly.

    I also like the speed that my laptop boots. Even without a SSD drive I am on my desktop in about 15 seconds with Hybrid Sleep (or is it hibernation), whatever. The Fast Start does indeed work nicely.
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