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  1. #16
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    I agree, the initial view was somewhat distracting, and I did initially say "What the heck is this junk" (I actually used different words, but they are not appropriate on a family forum.) I guess all I can say is that with a little work and perhaps a lot of patience this OS will work, and look if you want, exactly like you want it to.

    I suppose MS could have done things differently, but they made the decision to go "cold turkey". I truly do like Win 8 Pro and I believe everyone could if given a real chance. It might take a while for people to become accustomed to this radically new OS. I guess only time will tell.
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  2. #17
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handcuff36 View Post
    Can we agree to agree ?
    Indeed. Windows 8 is built on top of Windows 7, with a different type of boot loader and a couple of security tweaks to take advantage of newer hardware, and that's about it, as far as the guts are concerned.

    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
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  3. #18
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    I personally don't see any problem with implementation. Even with booting into metro it's just 1 click or 1 touch of the keyboard to get to the desktop and everything's there.
    I don't have a single thing to say against your personal implementation; why couldn't the millions upon millions have it their way just as easily as well? Vertical crossover users are more than welcome to enjoy it just as it is of course.

    I think most of us agree once we make it to point B thru Z. Its getting from point A to point B that's ruffled all the feathers.

  4. #19
    2 Star Lounger
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    The millions upon millions, if there are that many, can indeed have it just as easy. Windows 8 is not the least bit complicated. I think most users are smarter than they are getting credit for.

  5. #20
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    Again, that misses the point, but, ok, if you insist.

  6. #21
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medico View Post
    There are several things I also like better with Win 8 Pro. In Win 7, I set up my sharing, both using HomeGroup, then changing to Workgroup on my 3 PCs (2 laptops and a desktop). I set all permissions, went through and manually shared all folders on each PC, and yet when I tried to backup a file from my laptop to my wife's, the connection was very intermittent. Sometimes it would work and I was able to copy (update) the file on my wife's PC, but more often it would give me the I don't have permission error. With Win 8 I set up Workgroup and advanced sharing. My laptops never have a problem talking and transferring files. It just worked. I would get so frustrated with Win 7, and Win 8 just worked.
    Networking has never been an issue for me, not in any previous version of Windows. Networking in Windows 7 has been set it and forget it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medico View Post
    I do have all data on a separate partition, but all apps are installed on the OS partition. I know bbearren does cut his OS up quite a bit. I just prefer the simplicity of 2 partitions rather than several. I wonder if this set-up somehow caused some of his problems. This set up may also account for the lack of speed differences between Win 7 and Win 8.
    I was booted into the Windows 8 media, aimed the Windows 8 partitioning tool at the partition where Windows 7 Home Premium was installed, and selected Format. I've been using TeraByte's partitioning tools since the '90s, but the only way to get a clean install with Windows 8 Pro Upgrade is to let Windows do the format - and it pooched it.

    And I'm sure my two hard drive multiple partition setup is responsible for the increased performance I get with Windows 7. Windows 7 on my desktop is faster than a default Windows 8 on my desktop.
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
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  7. #22
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    And one more addendum. In my dual boot with Windows 8 on my desktop, I'm using the Windows 7 boot loader, not the Windows 8 loader.
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
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  8. #23
    4 Star Lounger
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.U.N. downtown View Post
    Again, that misses the point, but, ok, if you insist.
    I've said the same thing, but the boosters don't seem interested in listening.

    Current sales figures seem to support our viewpoint (which is not that it's particularly difficult to get Win 8 to be easily usable and comfortable, just that it doesn't COME that way and that this was a really, really stupid and completely unnecessary move that will likely significantly affect sales). All the boosters can hope for is that sales will take off at some point - we'll see.

    As for me, I'm getting used to it quickly and have been happy to discover that if I completely disable the brain-damaged 'fast startup' feature (and it really is gone - the powercfg -h off route even deletes hiberfil.sys) it makes almost no difference to my system's startup time: about 15 seconds with fast startup, about 21 seconds (including a 5-second pause before the default boot OS selection is used) without it, and this is hardly a hero-level system (a 32-bit Win 8 Pro installation with a decent 7200 rpm 500 GB HD502HJ Samsung disk for testing, though I'll probably replace it with a 5400 rpm Samsung F4 HD204UI in the increasingly likely event that I decide to make this my main system, triple-core 3.2 GHz AMD processor without any L3 cache, 4 GB of nominal DDR3 1333 RAM). It's possible that the difference will increase as startup becomes more complex (e.g., I haven't yet tried installing my usual 3rd-party firewall and anti-malware products to replace Microsoft's), but so far, so good. I'll likely go the Classic Shell route but haven't yet bothered to. At a sub-$30 Upgrade price point for the Pro edition (at Newegg today with 5% Discover cash back) I couldn't resist buying a third copy today just in case we eventually might need it.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that the entire installation (yes, it's 32-bit and without a hibernation file and with the paging file pruned to a default size of 1 GB increasable if necessary to 3 GB) takes less than 7 GB of disk space - four times as much as Win2K, of course, but entirely tolerable. I assume that part of the good startup time (measured from completion of POST to disappearance of the hourglass after log-in) is due to the use of 'delayed startup' for many of the ridiculous number of services started automatically (they're still probably worth pruning for later performance reasons, though Task Manager claimed that only 17% of RAM - if the total didn't include the paging file - was in use after boot).

    All in all, I'm pleasantly surprised aside from the gross stupdities: just hope that there aren't too many more of the latter that I've yet to discover and deal with. What began as a grudging acknowledgement that we really ought to pick up one or two copies while they're on sale just to future-proof our application-installation base for another decade seems to be turning out better than that.
    Last edited by - bill; 2012-12-16 at 22:28.

  9. #24
    2 Star Lounger
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlfvt View Post
    Windows 8 is not the least bit complicated.
    I think there's a need to distinguish between desktop mode and Metro mode. With a utility such as Classic Shell or Start8 to fix the UI, desktop mode seems to be generally regarded as being very acceptable. However, Metro mode has developed a reputation for being extremely difficult to learn, very awkward to use, and something best avoided.

  10. #25
    Super Moderator jwitalka's Avatar
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    Most of the posters on this board are technically knowledgeable and don't see how difficult it is for a lot of non techies to pick up Windows 8 with its jarring two GUIs and the hot spots. A friend of my wife's just picked a PC with Windows 8 on it and asked if there was some way to get Windows 7 installed on it. The hot spots and the new interface was driving her crazy. I offered to set it up to look and operate like Windows 7 but she wound up returning the PC.

    Jerry

  11. #26
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    I stopped by a friend's house at her request this afternoon. Her new (bought this month) HP laptop with Windows 8 would not connect to the internet through her wireless router. She prefers Windows 7, and uses the desktop for the most part. Sure enough, her home page wouldn't open in Internet Explorer on the desktop - could not connect.

    I checked the properties sheet on the internet connection, and it showed a live connection to the router. The properties sheet for the wireless adapter showed a stream of bits upstream and downstream. I clicked on diagnostics, which reset the adapter and pronounced everything OK. Still no home page on IE 10 on the desktop.

    Curious, I went to the start screen, and the live tiles were updating. Yahoo mail connected through the messaging app. The App Store showed a listing of available apps. So I clicked on the IE tile, and it jumped to the desktop, rather than opening on the start screen - and still couldn't connect to her home page.

    I tried this a couple of times, and IE refused to open on the start screen, jumping to the desktop each time. I had to explain to her that there are two different instances of IE 10 in Windows 8, one for the start screen and one for the desktop (which made no sense to her at all. "Why two?").

    She said, "So I have a connection to the internet, but I can't connect to where I want to go on the internet?" I confirmed. She asked me if I could fix it. I told her that with a laptop two weeks old, I would advise that she take it back to the store where she bought it, so that they could either make it right or replace it. She was getting ready to head out the door right behind me.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlfvt View Post
    Windows 8 is not the least bit complicated.
    Yeah, right.
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  12. #27
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    I have set IE 10 to always open in the desktop version since the Win 8 Style version does not accept add-ons. I use Last Pass as well as other add-ons.

    AlwaysIEDesktop.jpg

    In my system, Win 8 actually worked better than Win 7 to communicate between devices (laptop to laptop). Every once in a great while I loose internet connection, but then again this happened with Win 7 at least as often as it does in Win 8. I sometimes have to reboot my router, other times have to run the network trouble shooter. These 2 things always work for me. They also worked this way with Win 7.
    Last edited by Medico; 2012-12-18 at 17:48.
    BACKUP...BACKUP...BACKUP
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  13. #28
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    Ya, I always try (sometimes even succeed) to write without much consideration for the ease with which I can use a computer; more for the everyday struggles I see others encountering all the time. Without the patient or paid tech support, those struggles are compounded on W8; I.E. is a good example of dual nature Microsoft thrusts the user into, had it actually worked as it was supposed to that is, there are still the major interface differences between the two and one can explain and show the difference but then I've just given them twice as much to think about, and they were already taxed enough.

    The genius of the Evil Genius at Apple (may he rest in peace) was to simplify everything, wrap it all in a irresistible package and give the user just enough to make them want more. We as advanced users reject that approach as condescending and far too restrictive...yet is there any here who can argue with the success of that approach?

    I have a thesis now about how the approach Microsoft took for W8 could hurt sales of W8 touch devices, to an unknown degree, but it has to do with the reluctance business is going to have with W8 even after the SP1 equivalent is released, and the impending introduction of Office apps for both Android and Apple devices. Is there anything else that might garner a widespread business demand for what is presently an overpriced touch device if Office apps are ubiquitous?

  14. #29
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medico View Post
    I have set IE 10 to always open in the desktop version since the Win 8 Style version does not accept add-ons. I use Last Pass as well as other add-ons.
    Not her forte, Ted. She's running in default mode, which is the only way she knows how to use a laptop or desktop. And she's no dummy, either. She's a medical biology major with a near 4.0 GPA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medico View Post
    In my system, Win 8 actually worked better than Win 7 to communicate between devices (laptop to laptop). Every once in a great while I loose internet connection, but then again this happened with Win 7 at least as often as it does in Win 8. I sometimes have to reboot my router, other times have to run the network trouble shooter. These 2 things always work for me. They also worked this way with Win 7.
    Not in any way the issue - she had a strong, live connection between her laptop and her wireless router, and an active internet connection updating her live tiles, able to open Yahoo mail in the Messaging App, able to browze the App Store. I went through all the troubleshooting - there was no problem with the internet connection or router to laptop connection.

    Her issue was the fact that the default action for the IE 10 tile continually malfunctioned to the desktop IE 10, and the desktop IE 10 could not resolve any URL through an active internet connection.

    It was not, by any means, something to be easily resolved through add-ons and customizations, which she has neither the time nor the inclination to deal with - she's a full time student with a husband and a young daughter. The difficulty was, "My internet is broken." She needs her internet for school, and she needs her computer to "just work". Her old XP laptop had quit when her daughter spilled something on the keyboard.

    She also has an Asus desktop with Windows 7, but it has developed hardware (most likely motherboard) issues - it often goes into the Asus Repair Utility instead of booting into Windows, spends an inordinate amount of time trying to effect repairs (sometimes hours, which cannot be cancelled), pronounces that repairs are not possible and shuts down. On restart, it may well boot into Windows 7 without issue, or it may attempt another unrepairable repair. It's on its way to Best Buy (less than a year old).
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbearren View Post
    Her issue was the fact that the default action for the IE 10 tile continually malfunctioned to the desktop IE 10,
    That sounds like a preference rather than a problem (as in Ted' screenshot above).


    Quote Originally Posted by bbearren View Post
    and the desktop IE 10 could not resolve any URL through an active internet connection.
    And that sounds like a DNS issue.


    Bruce


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