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  1. #1
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    An interesting thing happened on the way to the forum

    Yesterday I finally decided I'd had enough of Windows 8 dominating my laptop, restored my Windows 7 image and got my laptop back to its (and my) familiar and soothing Windows 7 habits.

    Next step, install Windows 8 for dual boot on my desktop. I've been dual booting Windows 7 Home Premium and Windows 7 Ultimate for nearly two years, now. I booted from my Windows 8 DVD partition (works much more quickly than using the actual DVD) and proceeded to perform a clean install of Windows 8 in the partition soon to be formerly occupied by Windows 7 Home Premium.

    I chose Keep Nothing, pointed the installer to the Windows 7 Home Premium partition and selected Format. The Windows 7 Home Premium partition was a 60GB partition, second on that particular hard drive, and immediately following it is a 100GB partition for Program Files. Now is when the fun started happening.

    The Windows 8 format utility somehow split the Home Premium and Program Files partitions. When all was said and done, I had 40GB of free space in front of the 60GB Windows 8 partition, and 60GB of free space after. My 100GB Program Files partition was gone, split asunder and lying fallow as unallocated space. Windows 8 booted and ran just fine, but all my Program Files for my Windows Ultimate dual boot were missing in action.

    Of course, I have a recent TeraByte Image For Windows drive image of that Program Files partition, but it isn't in two pieces. So I used Image For Windows to make a fresh image of the Windows 8 partition, then deleted it using BootIt Bare Metal, leaving me with a bit over 160GB of unallocated space. From there I created the original partitioning scheme with BootIt BM, restored Windows 8 where I intended for it to be in the first place, and am finishing up the restoration of my Program Files partition using Image For DOS as I type this on my laptop.

    Now for the most interesting tidbit. I have BootIt Bare Metal installed on an 8MB partition on one of my hard drives, and I use it as a boot manager. When installing Windows, Windows takes over the boot process. Once Windows is installed, I just slip the BootIt BM CD in the drive, boot to the CD and reactivate BootIt BM. It takes over the boot process once more. Occaisionally, a bit of tweaking is involved, but it's never complicated.

    I had recently downloaded the latest update (free for licensed users) for BIBM, v1.13. V1.12 works with Windows 8, but v1.13 mentions Windows 8 specifically - and there is a warning for all dual booters. If "Fastboot" is left enabled in Windows 8, it will likely interfere with one's partitions, and can even make a system unbootable. I'm thinking that may well be what happened to me.

    The exact wording specific for BootIt Bare Metal is as follows:
    "Warning to Windows 8 Users
    You must disable the Fast startup option or you risk corruption of your partitions and data. This option can be disabled by viewing the Windows 8 partition's properties in Partition Work and clicking the Disable Fast Start button. For more details see the View partition properties section of the BootIt User Manual."

    This may or may not apply to other partitioning tools, but I think it's definitely worth looking into for those who dual boot or intend to.

    Before I made an image of Windows 8, I made sure to disable "Fastboot". I'll see how things work out, and post any applicable updates.

    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to bbearren For This Useful Post:

    - bill (2012-12-13),scaisson (2012-12-20)

  3. #2
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    And here I thought I might have been just a tad excessive in characterizing 'Fastboot' as "dumb as the proverbial stone". Obviously, Win8 believes that it owns the entire system, including portions which have nothing whatsoever to do with it, and woe betide him who may be so presumptuous as to act otherwise. I wonder if ALL hibernation has always acted this way: the BootIt wording seems to suggest that hibernation is remembering the entire structure of the disk and not bothering to perform even the most rudimentary sanity checks to see if it might have changed when it wakes up but just trundling along assuming it hadn't.

    Thanks for bringing this up: I wouldn't have thought of it and might have left Fastboot enabled assuming that any complications would be as benign as those which I described earlier.

    That said, it's not clear how Fastboot could have been responsible for the partition damage you experienced during Win8 installation, since no partition changes occurred during that period save any handled by the installation process itself. So perhaps there's a separate and similarly catastrophic bug to worry about too.

  4. #3
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    There's also a reboot or two in the installation process, so something could have gone awry there, as well. I also had a couple of drive letters switched, but no other partition issues. I have everything clicking along nicely, now. The dual boot is working as it should, and I'll be leaving Fast startup disabled.

    Of course, System Restore gets munged when going from one Windows installation to the other, so I'm told, but I never use it, so that isn't a problem for me.

    All in all, this is just another very good reminder to keep one's drive images up to date. I have over 75GB of programs installed on the 100GB partition that got pooched, and got them all back, good as new, in less than an hour.
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  5. #4
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    Addendum

    As for which provides better performance, Windows 7 or Windows 8, I offer my Windows Experience Index as rated by each. On my Dell Latitude E5420 with Intel Core i5-2520 @2.5GHz, 250GB Hard Drive and 8GB RAM:

    Running Windows 8 -

    7.1 - Processor
    7.5 - RAM
    5.8 - Graphics
    6.3 - Gaming Graphics
    5.5 - Primary Hard Disk
    5.5 - Base Score

    Running Windows 7 -

    7.1 - Processor
    7.5 - RAM
    5.9 - Graphics
    6.4 - Gaming Graphics
    5.6 - Primary Hard Disk
    5.6 - Base Score

    My personal assessment of Windows 8 after using it almost exclusively for more than a month is that it takes away some things that I don't really want taken away, it adds some things that I don't use and have no intentions of using, puts some rather silly things in the way of actually getting useful work done, and shows a decrease in performance as scored by Windows itself.

    Bottom line for me is that if I have to do a bunch of tweaks and add some helper apps all to get what I already have with Windows 7, and have lower performance, why bother?

    Stability is absolutely not an issue for me. Security is absolutely not an issue for me. Windows 7 handles those to my complete satisfaction.


    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  6. #5
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    I would not rely on the WEI between versions of Windows. It is tweaked to reflect a different baseline and upper end computing environment.

    The scale on Vista was from 1 - 5.9. On Win7 from 1 - 7.9. On Win8 from 1 - 9.9.

    See Windows Experience Index scale changes on Windows 8.

    Joe

  7. #6
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    What I am relying on is that there is no discernable performance difference between my laptop running Windows 7 and my laptop running Windows 8, and that it won't run under Windows 8 the way I prefer it to run.

    As I said, if I have to do tweaks and add helper apps only to get what I already have with Windows 7, with no improvement in performance, why bother?
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  8. #7
    2 Star Lounger
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    I ran Window 8 beta on a virtual hard disk and saw very little difference either. I wonder what Windows 8 will be like with 2 or 3 years of hotfixes added in. I don't see the effort either until I get a new PC. Plus I've got software that I would have to replace that won't work on Windows 8.
    Joe

  9. #8
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    Still puttering with Win8 in VM here and there basically is no difference. W8 seems just a touch snappier but that's probably just because it lacks aeero glass. Performance gain by exclusion or by slight of state retention is fine if that which is excluded is not missed and nothing goes amiss with a shortcut method.
    I still can't figure out what the quasi-integration fiasco is all about though other than as a marketing ploy to try and jump start the touch device market. As separate ideas I think the Modern and the Desktop are terrific, each applicable to different environments with some vertical crossover, but no one should have to jump through even the slightest hoop to use either exactly as they wish.

    So rather than go ahead on upgrading many Win7 systems at what is a good upgrade price, I'll be holding off for a long time yet to see which way this is going to turn out, do I get more effortless choice up front on how I want to run things or does it get even worse? Stop making the decision for me Microsoft, it's not making me even the slightest bit more interested in touch when you're trying to force the interface on me.

  10. #9
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    Bear, good morning. quoting you : As I said, if I have to do tweaks and add helper apps only to get what I already have with Windows 7, with no improvement in performance, why bother?

    I did bother and I have my Acer running in a way that you would not know that it is W-8 and not W-7, on top of this, I find that it is quite snappy, it boots in 33 seconds, including the PW typing and I am not a fast typist. I rid my screen of all tiles, only the Desktop is present and an Enter gets me to work. All my old apps, programmes are also running fine in W-8 when some of them were a trifle recalcitrant in W-7. EG: Office 2000, Acrobat 5, Home Planet, Win-98 Solitaire and many more of my old standards.

    Just an opinion here, Bear. We are all different and some more than others. Let me state that I would not return to W-7 as a conclusion from this lowly user. Jean.

  11. #10
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    There are several things I also like better with Win 8 Pro. In Win 7, I set up my sharing, both using HomeGroup, then changing to Workgroup on my 3 PCs (2 laptops and a desktop). I set all permissions, went through and manually shared all folders on each PC, and yet when I tried to backup a file from my laptop to my wife's, the connection was very intermittent. Sometimes it would work and I was able to copy (update) the file on my wife's PC, but more often it would give me the I don't have permission error. With Win 8 I set up Workgroup and advanced sharing. My laptops never have a problem talking and transferring files. It just worked. I would get so frustrated with Win 7, and Win 8 just worked.

    I really like the File History feature of Win 8. My data needs are not huge, and I run file history manually each month after I create my new Image. Again, just works.

    I like the picture password feature.

    My laptops boot to the lock screen in 15 seconds. Yes I am using Fast Start and it works fine for me.

    I do have all data on a separate partition, but all apps are installed on the OS partition. I know bbearren does cut his OS up quite a bit. I just prefer the simplicity of 2 partitions rather than several. I wonder if this set-up somehow caused some of his problems. This set up may also account for the lack of speed differences between Win 7 and Win 8.

    But as JP says we are all different and some of us will never go back to Win 7. Win 8 is just working better for me than Win 7 did. And I loved Win 7 much better than XP, but now I feel the same about Win 8.
    BACKUP...BACKUP...BACKUP
    Have a Great Day! Ted


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    Win 8 Pro (64 Bit), IE 10 (64 Bit)


    Complete PC Specs: By Speccy

  12. #11
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    Hi Jean. Let me begin by stating emphatically, "To each his own!" We all have our reasons for doing the things that we do.

    The purpose of this particular thread was to illustrate some very unusual behavior in installing Windows 8 in a dual boot configuration where the Windows 8 format command got a little out of hand. In addition, I reiterated the benefit of using drive imaging for correcting things that can happen very unexpectantly.

    What I'm saying in post #6 is that Windows 7 works as I want it to work. Windows 8 is neither faster, more reliable nor more secure than my Windows 7 in any discernible way. My desktop stays turned on 24/7 so that Task Scheduler can take care of all my routine maintenance, so boot times are meaningless. My laptops sleep on AC power, and hibernate on battery power, so again, boot times are meaningless.

    I have had no BSOD on any of my Windows 7 machines not directly related to failed/failing hardware (and that has only happened twice, to two different machines).

    So the bottom line is that I can do a lot of stuff to Windows 8 to make it operate like I want it to operate, or simply stay with Windows 7, and just keep on keepin' on. I won't be recommending Windows 8 to any of my friends and clients who have a working system, but I'll be able to help those who get stuck with Windows 8 with the purchase of a new system (and this has already begun).
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  13. #12
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    Yes, Bear, you said it properly : >>> Windows 7 works as I want it to work. Windows 8 is neither faster, more reliable nor more secure than my Windows 7 in any discernible way. <<<

    When I wrote that my machine boots quicker, it is just an impression, no technical instrument here to really time this. I do not remember how quick w-7 was so my argument is just this . . . smoke.

    >>> Windows 7 works as I want it to work. <<<

    I have the impression that W-8 is W-7 with the added Touch Screen facility, nothing more except maybe, that the coding was cleaned up and thus it is a little quicker. This will never prevent a W-7 user from enjoying his machines.

    I do not get very complicated in my installs, no other partition on any HDs, I do not even install any of my old apps to the "Programmes Files" folder, I have everything in the C:\ directly, works for me and I can easily "path" to any .exe this way. I have most of them on the Quick Launch, 19 of them.

    So, all in all, I am of the opinion that we both use the OS the same way and maybe the same OS save the name, 7 or 8. Can we agree to agree ?

  14. #13
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    We will all use what seems to work best for us. If Win 7 is working the way you wish it to then by all means keep it. In my case I had some minor snafus with Win 7 that were just irritating to me. You know the little nags that just pry themselves under your skin. I do not have those little irritations with Win 8 Pro. So for me there is no question, Win 8 Pro will remain on our laptops.
    BACKUP...BACKUP...BACKUP
    Have a Great Day! Ted


    Sony Vaio Laptop, 2.53 GHz Duo Core Intel CPU, 8 GB RAM, 320 GB HD
    Win 8 Pro (64 Bit), IE 10 (64 Bit)


    Complete PC Specs: By Speccy

  15. #14
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    What Jean describes is what is so frustrating! Microsoft had it so close and just missed. Imagine if W8 just came as Jean and Ted have it now, either with smart detection of components/peripherals or a simple choice in the setup phase. BINGO! It would be flying off the virtual shelves and there would be setup and use questions, hardly a "what the heck is Microsoft doing" question among them. That's the only point that keeps getting missed. Implementation, not quality of the product.

  16. #15
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    "That's the only point that keeps getting missed. Implementation, not quality of the product."

    I personally don't see any problem with implementation. Even with booting into metro it's just 1 click or 1 touch of the keyboard to get to the desktop and everything's there.

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