Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: Dual 8 plus 7

  1. #1
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    820
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 62 Times in 57 Posts

    Dual 8 plus 7

    There is a neat install procedure for Win 8 that will give you a dual boot arrangement (courtesy of Microsoft) if you already have Win 7 installed. Does anyone know if it can be done the other way around (i.e. start with Win 8 installed and add Win 7)?

  2. #2
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Polk County, Florida
    Posts
    3,760
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 424 Times in 338 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dogberry View Post
    There is a neat install procedure for Win 8 that will give you a dual boot arrangement (courtesy of Microsoft) if you already have Win 7 installed. Does anyone know if it can be done the other way around (i.e. start with Win 8 installed and add Win 7)?
    Post a link, please, to this courtesy of Microsoft arrangement.

    As to your question in general, dual booting requires partitioning your hard drive to make room for the second OS, installing a not-in-use licensed Retail version of that second OS that you own, and editing your BCD store to accept the second OS as a boot option. If both OS are Microsoft, you will have to turn off System Restore on both, because there's no way for it to work, anyway, and it can also cause problems. (Both OS will use the same folders).

    There are some other complications to deal with as well, if Windows 8 is already installed, but it can be done.
    Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware.
    Unleash Windows

  3. #3
    4 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New Hampshire USA
    Posts
    431
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 37 Times in 34 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bbearren View Post
    If both OS are Microsoft, you will have to turn off System Restore on both, because there's no way for it to work, anyway, and it can also cause problems. (Both OS will use the same folders).
    Never having used System Restore myself (I prefer imaging), this raises questions which I think may not be entirely irrelevant to the OP:

    1. By 'Both OS will use the same folders' are you referring to using some kind of special System Restore folders on each drive to which System Restore is being applied (since each OS will have its own private partition - which Microsoft insists on calling the 'boot' drive - to use for 'systemy' folders which other than potential System Restore activity should be left alone by the other system)?

    2. I've always assumed that System Restore was much more useful for the system information on the 'boot' drive than it would be for, say, a shared data-only drive (where full imaging or other backup mechanisms seem preferable to me). If that's the case, would it be sufficient to a) turn off System Restore in both systems only for shared data drives and b) use Disk Management in each system to remove the drive letter for the other system's 'boot' drive to keep each system from ruining Restore points on the other's 'boot' drive while still allowing each system to use System Restore on its OWN 'boot' drive? Or would the running system still muck about with the other's Restore points, in which case could you use the old trick of modifying partition IDs to 'hide' the other system's 'boot' drive so that it would not be considered an option for such activity (as I recall this convention did not, at least in older environments, prohibit such a partition from being used to boot a Windows system, and if so it could be a set-and-forget operation rather than one performed each time the other system was booted)? In both cases this assumes that you have no need to access one system's 'boot' drive from the other system (e.g., if you wanted to repair one system's Registry from the other system, you'd first need to copy it to a shared location before operating on it).

    3. It would, of course, be far easier if you could just in each system disable System Restore on the other system's 'boot' drive - if you can do this without any residual activity (even chkdsk? I never tell it to fix whatever 'problems' it finds until I know what they are, but when it runs on boot it doesn't bother to ask and I'm not always there to tell it not to run) which would continue destroying the other system's Restore points.

    Some of the actions above would not necessarily prevent a newly-installed system from initially destroying Restore points in the other system, but if they could prevent any later such destruction judicious imaging before installation could presumably be used to handle the initial trashing (as long as restoring the image did not cause the offending system to think that the partition was now a new one that it should oh-so-helpfully 'clean up' in that manner...). Apologies for just asking questions rather than providing answers, but since I have no use for System Restore myself I'm motivated only by minor curiosity in this area - though others who DO use the facility might actually benefit from answers if anyone happens to know them.
    Last edited by - bill; 2013-01-04 at 11:56. Reason: Clarified description of 'hiding' a partition

  4. #4
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Polk County, Florida
    Posts
    3,760
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 424 Times in 338 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by - bill View Post
    Never having used System Restore myself (I prefer imaging), this raises questions which I think may not be entirely irrelevant to the OP:

    1. By 'Both OS will use the same folders' are you referring to using some kind of special System Restore folders on each drive to which System Restore is being applied (since each OS will have its own private partition - which Microsoft insists on calling the 'boot' drive - to use for 'systemy' folders which other than potential System Restore activity should be left alone by the other system)?
    I've never used it, either. The folders in question are named "System Volume Information". The actual "SystemRestore" folder where Restore Points are stored is in the "System Volume Information" folder, but there's also a whole bunch of other stuff in there as well, additional folders such as "Windows Backup", "WindowsImageBackup", "MountPointManagerRemoteDatabase", as well as some log files and the "Syschache.hve" file. System Restore can be turned "off" or "on" at a volume by volume level; it's on by default on the system drive, where Windows is installed (and that's where the "System Volume Information" folder contains all those other items). It can be turned "off" or "on" on the system drive or any other drives/partitions individually through the "System Protection" tab of System Properties.

    That being said, there is a "System Volume Information" folder located on each and every volume (either drive or partition or logical drives in an extended partition - there's a "System Volume Information" folder in each and every one). These don't have all the additional folders that are contained in the one on the system drive, and if System Restore is turned off on these other volumes, those folders are basically empty. These are still recognized as a "system" folder by Windows, however.

    When dual booting, each Windows OS recognizes the same folders in the same way - they are "system" folders. If System Restore is turned "on" on the system volume (which it is by default) for both dual booting Windows OS's, each OS will create its own "Restore Point" in the "System Volume Information\SystemRestore" folder in the volume where System Restore is turned "on".

    This will begin with the installation of the second OS, when it writes its initial Restore Point to the "System Volume Information\SystemRestore" folder that it sees on the system drive of the other OS, as well as to its own "System Volume Information\SystemRestore" folder. Restore Points quickly become unretrievable, System Restore becomes useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by - bill View Post
    2. I've always assumed that System Restore was much more useful for the system information on the 'boot' drive than it would be for, say, a shared data-only drive (where full imaging or other backup mechanisms seem preferable to me).
    Only the system state is written to a Restore Point. It doesn't work for data or other non-system files/folders.

    As for the rest of your questions, perhaps someone else will chime in. Having read so many horrer stories from folks who were relying on System Restore to save their bacon, only to have it fail totally at the most inopportune time, I really haven't looked too far beyond finding out what it can't do, and how to turn it off.

    I've been using drive imaging since before System Restore came along, and I've never found a reason to leave it.
    Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware.
    Unleash Windows

  5. #5
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    820
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 62 Times in 57 Posts
    I was thrown for a loop by my having been asked for a link. I thought I had a Microsoft source but it may just have been a lookalike. A Google search yields many hits, but not the official one that I thought I had, and on top of that, the field is cluttered with discussions of the pre-release version and not the final.

    As an incidental matter, I can give you a few links of interest: ONE, TWO, THREE. HERE is one recent post on dual-booting using third-party software, and I am sure there are many others. Easy BCD is my utility of choice for that.

    It looks as if I would have to restore the final Windows 7 installation I had on the machine before installing Windows 8, to which various links, such as those above, refer. Unfortunately my Win 7 image dates back to August, at which time I had the Win 8 RTM version and clean-installed it.
    I became interested in the convenience of the built-in Win 8 dual boot when I ran across it recently, and I wish I had known of it at the start. It does illustrate the benefit of having the dual boot, since the version of Acronis I have on that can be used to image and restore all of the relevant drives or partitions, but Windows 8 requires a newer version of Acronis. (I have that as well, and my Windows 8 on the machine is fully up-to-date, but other users may find that a useful savings, pun or no pun.)
    ___

    Systems are replaceable, data is not. Whatever a restore point may or may not do, it will not expose you to the risk of data loss beyond what a system failure may already have inflicted. If you are imaging data within your images, your data will be restored to the state it was in at the time at which the image was made. A System Restore will leave your data untouched, and if you don’t have continuous data backup, a restore point is the first resort – restoring an image can wait. For convenience, you can even put a ‘create restore point’ shortcut in a location that suits you if you want to make restore points manually from time to time.

  6. #6
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,522
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 170 Times in 142 Posts
    'dogberry'

    The answer to your original query is YES. One can have 8 first & then install Win7 in the same box for a dual-boot. One simply needs to have an empty drive or partition available for it (7). IF a partition is not yet available then one must be created. Obviously, having another drive available (besides) the one holding Win8 is the easiest, simplest route or approach... then there is no need for things like Easy BCD. I dual-boot to beta test each new OS that comes along. I have done this since the XP-Vista days. An alternative is install Win7 as a VM on the Win8 Host machine.

    I run XP, Vista & Win7 as VMs on my Win8 Host. All 4 run all the time. But, come time for me to Beta Test Windows 9, I will likely dual-boot again.

    Cheers,
    Drew
    Win8Logo.jpg

  7. #7
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Polk County, Florida
    Posts
    3,760
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 424 Times in 338 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by dogberry View Post
    Systems are replaceable, data is not. Whatever a restore point may or may not do, it will not expose you to the risk of data loss beyond what a system failure may already have inflicted. If you are imaging data within your images, your data will be restored to the state it was in at the time at which the image was made. A System Restore will leave your data untouched, and if you don’t have continuous data backup, a restore point is the first resort – restoring an image can wait. For convenience, you can even put a ‘create restore point’ shortcut in a location that suits you if you want to make restore points manually from time to time.
    "System restore doesn't" (using the quotes) in a Google search will yield about 296,000 hits. "System restore can't" yields another 255,000. Substitute "won't" for another 226,000. How many is too many? Just one, if it's yours.

    Just one catastrophic hard drive failure is all it would take for one to wish that a drive image was available. I have had such a failure. Evidently the hard drive's PCB shorted somewhere; it wouldn't even let the PC boot to the BIOS screen or boot from CD. But I also had an up-to-date set of drive images available. A trip to the store for a new drive (that was also on sale, lucky me), a little tool time and a boot from my rescue CD, run the restore and it was like nothing had ever happened.

    A drive image restoration can resurrect a PC (system and data) destroyed in a house fire. I'm using such a PC to post this now. I don't think System Restore has that capability.

    My drive imaging regimen is a bit different, but it does work rather well for me, and has not failed me in all the years I've been using it. I can't say that System Restore has failed me, because I've never used it, and I consider that the possibility that it might fail me is far, far greater than the possibility that my drive imaging might fail me.

    I'll stay with drive imaging.
    Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware.
    Unleash Windows

  8. #8
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    820
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 62 Times in 57 Posts
    System Restore Doesn't

    At no time did I state or imply that this was an either-or proposition, merely that it was a matter of precedence. If you have an image it is presumably saved to an external storage device, and you can restore it to any computer any time you want. But if the image contains data and it was made last week, it can only restore data that was included in that image, and you will have lost all of the work you have done since then. Systems are replaceable, data is not.

  9. #9
    5 Star Lounger
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    820
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 62 Times in 57 Posts
    Drew:

    I have an empty partition ready, with a maximum size of about 200 GB, and I can boot-install Windows 7 to it from a flash drive. That part is easy.

    Does the dual-boot feature appear out of nowhere on the first post-installation boot? (I'm tempted to try it here and now, but it's getting late and probably won't do it tonight, but any clarification would be welcome.)

  10. #10
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,522
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 170 Times in 142 Posts
    Yes.

    Once the 2nd (or more) OS is installed upon booting there is a screen w/ the two (or more) OSs listed & you pick & boot to whichever wanted @ that moment. Honestly, that's all there is to it. I triple-booted for a while, too. You install, start, select & boot to that chosen OS.

    Cheers,
    Drew
    Win8Logo.jpg

  11. #11
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,522
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 170 Times in 142 Posts
    Some feel wkly back-ups are not good enough & prefer daily. One can have a lot of added or changed data in a wk.

    Cheers,
    Drew
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #12
    Silver Lounger
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    2,335
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 267 Times in 260 Posts
    I've never considered SR and imaging either/or...either. Two completely different things, especially on XP, subsequently muddied with later OSes but I think one can still choose an XP-style restore without including data.

    SR is like having a first responder unit, paramedics if you will, while imaging is the hospital with full facilities. If there is any problem that is likely only affecting the registry, SR can handle it every time, quick and simple. The only time I was ever burned was when I didn't know dual boot XP and 7 were destroying restore points so when it came time to use one, none were available.

    Windows updates that cause problems, some startup problems, a program install that goes bad (not an uninstall though), hardware that seems to malfunction and stop working, like the audio subsystem for example, registry alterations that go badly, all very adroitly handled by the paramedics; anything more serious or data-related and its off to the hospital we go.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Polk County, Florida
    Posts
    3,760
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 424 Times in 338 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bbearren View Post
    My drive imaging regimen is a bit different, but it does work rather well for me, and has not failed me in all the years I've been using it. I can't say that System Restore has failed me, because I've never used it, and I consider that the possibility that it might fail me is far, far greater than the possibility that my drive imaging might fail me.

    I'll stay with drive imaging.
    There's this one. System Restore would have done nothing for that situation. Absolutely nothing. Drive imaging made it a cake walk.

    And a fairly short explanation of my methodology here.

    My system setup and backup regimen combined renders System Restore at best redundant, and literally a waste of time. I don't need redundant; I already have multiple images (boots and suspenders, as Fred Langa would say).

    It also makes restoring the pertinent drive image take only a few short minutes, as most are small images, and that procedure is "one and done" - there are no lingering doubts. The problem and all its permutations and possibilities are eliminated in one fell swoop.
    Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware.
    Unleash Windows

  14. #14
    Super Moderator jwitalka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    117
    Thanked 799 Times in 720 Posts
    System Restore was never meant to be a backup replacement, but it does come in handy as a quick recovery from some system failures and for the less technical has the advantage of requiring no user intervention. Sure, it doesn't always work and I would never recommend it as your sole system backup but I have successfully used it many times to recover client PCs. Even though I have a regular image backup routine for my PCs, I still have System Restore enabled to use a quicker recovery option.

    Jerry

  15. #15
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Polk County, Florida
    Posts
    3,760
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 424 Times in 338 Posts

    Dual boot advantage

    Currently I'm dual booting Windows 7 and Windows 8, Windows 7 being my default. I also run an XP VM under Windows 7. One of the advantages I have in booting into the other OS is that I can use TeraByte's Image for Windows to create images of my drives that the un-booted OS uses. I can create an image, verify it byte-for-byte, and still use my PC unhindered, all at the same time. (I use the Windows 7 boot loader rather than the Windows 8 loader - it seems to be a bit quicker to me.)

    The point here is that creating drive images doesn't intrude on the availability of my PC for ordinary use. With dual booting, drive imaging is about as painless as it can get. System Restore is quite useless to me. It's not "either/or" so much as "Why?"

    Running VM's all on top of one OS doesn't facilitate that type of drive imaging.

    On a personal note, I've found that the more tedious a task is, the less frequent I am likely to attempt it. Backups shouldn't be tedious. Then one doesn't find oneself with an August drive image as a lone available backup.




    Last edited by bbearren; 2013-01-05 at 11:34. Reason: clarity
    Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware.
    Unleash Windows

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •