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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medico View Post
    Most is now pre-installed with Win 8 Standard ... although most would allow upgrades to Win 8 Pro, and perhaps downgrades to Win 7.
    You can only downgrade from Pro, so not sticking with standard on any new computer will cost an extra $100 whether you go up or back.

    Bruce
    Last edited by BruceR; 2013-03-03 at 09:43.

  2. #47
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    Thanks Bruce. I was not sure if the Standard edition could be downgraded. In my mind the Pro upgrade could be beneficial.
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  3. #48
    Bronze Lounger Drew1903's Avatar
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    The title of this thread suggests a choice or decision or even comparison between apples & oranges.

    7 is 7 and 8 is 8. In a sense, certainly, in terms of new purchases, 7 was and 8 is.

    Sometimes people don't like a person to be candid and if they think they can label something 'opinion' then they can ignore it or call it incorrect. That said...

    (Now) when I build desktops for clients they are Windows 8. (Now) When I sell laptops to clients they are Windows 8. I will, of course, continue to support 7 & the Windows before it but, I will definitely (now) promote Windows 8.

    1 simple reason... it's so darn good, packed w/ cool features and fantastic technologies and really easy to use. 7 is/was good but, 8 is better. Yes, Windows 8 is different on the surface and quite impressive under the surface. It will be different because it is a different OS than 7. I know XXXX disagrees w/ me but, there is no need to add 3rd Party stuff to try and make 8 look/act like an OS it is not. 8 can be used very nicely w/out adding such things... one can add such stuff but, the OS does not need any of it. I give my clients 8 w/out such stuff and they, still, love it.

    You can, also, imagine I do not feel downgrading from 8 makes any sense, at all. Look up downgrading... means going to something lesser, older or below what one has... the definition sure applies in this context.

    One may find something that doesn't work on 8 but, there is not much (well, except for, maybe, good ole HP printers) and most everything & anything that works on 7, works on 8.

    Choosing between them... pretty easy decision... 8, no question, hands down & absolutely.

    I keep Windows 7 as a VM for client support. I've always liked 7, had no problems w/ it and it's a very good OS... but, then 8 came along and is the #1 preference/choice.

    Cheers,
    Drew
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    Last edited by Medico; 2013-03-04 at 07:26.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew1903 View Post
    Sometimes people don't like a person to be candid and if they think they can label something 'opinion' then they can ignore it or call it incorrect.
    Then again, some people actually understand the difference between fact and opinion and are inclined to call out those who don't. See below.

    1 simple reason... it's so darn good, packed w/ cool features and fantastic technologies and really easy to use.
    Opinion. Others have the equally legitimate opinion that it's a PITA to use (mostly because it's so unnecessarily cumbersome and/or just unnecessarily different executing common desktop functions when compared with Win 7) and that some of those 'cool features' are actually destructive (just consider the number of people HERE who have been bitten by the vagaries of the 'cool' "shutdown now really means hibernate" 'fast startup' facility). While some people may find at least some of those 'cool' new features useful, others simply don't find them of any notable utility at all and therefore aren't happy to put up with the rest of a package that has no significant benefits for them over Win 7.

    7 is/was good but, 8 is better.
    Opinion (see above).

    I know XXXX will disagree w/ me but, there is no need to add 3rd Party stuff to try and make 8 look/act like an OS it is not.
    The fact that a reasonable person who is also a fan of Win 8 disagrees with you here is a STRONG indication that what you're offering is simply an opinion. The fact that many other fans of Win 8 here share XXXX view suggests that your opinion is a minority one.

    8 can be used very nicely w/out adding such things
    'Can be used'? Yes. 'Very nicely'? That's clearly opinion.

    I give my clients 8 w/out such stuff and they, still, love it.
    While loads of other people don't, even with such 'unnecessary' add-ons: see the high percentage of VERY negative reviews of the Win 8 Pro update package at Amazon and Newegg for a far larger sample size than you've likely got access to. As the saying goes, everyone has an opinion, and an awful lot of them don't agree with yours.

    You can, also, imagine I do not feel downgrading from 8 makes any sense, at all. Look up downgrading... means going to something lesser, older or below what one has... the definition sure applies in this context.
    Yet another opinion. While industry-standard terminology defines an 'upgrade' in this context simply as moving to a newer system version, such a move by no means always constitutes an upgrade in utility in any general sense (consider, for example, the 'upgrade' from Win98SE to WinME or in many people's opinion that from XP to Vista). That's why so many people put quotes around the word 'upgrade' when applying it to moving from Win 7 (or XP) to Win 8 (though to be fair I haven't seen many people use quotes when talking about upgrading from Vista to Win 8).

    Choosing between them... pretty easy decision... 8, no question, hands down & absolutely.
    An easy decision for you, anyway. And often for others who hold exactly the opposite view: that's one of the characteristics of opinions vs. facts.

    I've always liked 7, had no problems w/ it and it's a very good OS... but, then 8 came along and is the #1 preference/choice.
    Do you have primarily an engineering or a marketing background, Drew? Your insistence on presenting opinion as fact despite frequent correction suggests the latter, but it's been known for even fairly good engineers to move to the dark side.
    Last edited by Medico; 2013-03-04 at 07:25.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by - bill View Post
    (just consider the number of people HERE who have been bitten by the vagaries of the 'cool' "shutdown now really means hibernate" 'fast startup' facility).
    One or two, I believe, and in unusual circumstances; because both Restart and shutdown /p do a full shutdown, so it's rarely inconvenient.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drew1903 View Post
    ... but, then 8 came along and is the #1 preference/choice.
    If you just put "my" there instead of "the", you might keep Bill happy!


    Bruce

  6. #51
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    Ya, I can't say the O-word or I get deleted. I hope I can say that I (me, myself, no one else (well maybe Irene too)) am not a pompous fool and would insist that anyone consider my prose suspect at any time. On one hand, I guess it's good there is a start screen I.U. since it's the only Windows OS of it's kind with one which makes a real touch interface possible and since we already know that a desktop interface in not good at all in a mobile environment, naturally it follows that the touch interface is perfeck for home desktop use. That my friends is fact, do not argue with me.
    Never mind that my all apps screen scrolls now and I can't find anything in under a minute and most apps I try are nowhere near as functional as their desktop equivalents and when I want to browse or retrieve file folders on my local home network, this fine unifying OS cannot do it unless they are in homegroup libraries or the target supports DLNA (which most NAS drives do these days); the latter of which one might be tempted to find extremely inadequate since it lists everything in all folders alphabetically. I'm sure it's better to sort through hundreds of files with very similar nomenclature until I decipher the proper sort character by eye some 5-7 characters into each name; I'm positive it's my fault for having such a structured folder-based way of ordering my data; and all that data on non-supported locations? Believe me my friends, you do not need it, otherwise Windows 8 would not have determined it is not accessible because clearly it is superior in every way. You cannot argue with fact my friends. Thank you.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceR View Post
    One or two, I believe
    The number of people here (including me) who have encountered unexpected problems with 'fast startup' is definitely greater than two, and the number who have mentioned that they disabled 'fast startup' or created a shortcut to perform a real shutdown is greater again (but I'll admit that it's only an assumption that at least some in this second group had encountered or at least expected to encounter problems that caused them to do this rather than just did so for a lark).

  8. #53
    Bronze Lounger Drew1903's Avatar
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    Much, if not most of what I say is based on factual, even measured, observations and actual use.

    But, it's ok, Bruce, I can take it... it's just Bill being Bill, again or some more. I was warned & told it's best to ignore him long go. Nice for XXXX that Bill holds him in such high esteem that everything can be judged (in his mind) against what XXXX thinks. It's ok, I needed a chuckle this morning.

    As I had said, anyone can yell "opinion", just so comments can be discounted as wrong or meaningless.

    Cheers,
    Drew
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    Last edited by Medico; 2013-03-04 at 14:12.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew1903 View Post
    Much, if not most of what I say is based on factual, even measured, observations and actual use.
    The problem, Drew, is that you don't understand just how limited your own observations are compared with the vastly greater range of experiences out there - many of which lead to significantly different conclusions than those that you've drawn yourself. And (perhaps worse) that you can't acknowledge that vastly wider range of experience even after it's been brought to your attention.

    In other words, your mind seems so closed that you just don't listen. Little wonder that you can't distinguish your own opinions from actual facts.

    Nice for XXXX that Bill holds him in such high esteem that everything can be judged (in his mind) against what XXXX thinks.
    Dear me - your comprehension seems to be suffering as well, also a common occurrence when one doesn't listen. (By the way, you should probably check your PM.) My reference was not to any belief in this person's infallibility (a belief which he himself would probably reassure you I don't likely hold) but rather to the fact that when someone who shares most of your own appreciation for Win 8 disagrees with you on one aspect of it this is a clue (and this is an area in which you seem to need all the clue you can get) that the disagreement may well be a matter of opinion rather than one based on fact.
    Last edited by - bill; 2013-03-04 at 13:57.

  10. #55
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    Well it's not just encountering unexpected problems, it seems to already have become a troubleshooting item, the recommendation being to disable it and see if that was causing the strange behavior. That sort of thing is almost inevitable when an abstract concept or layer is being used to promote another feature, that of faster startup. For example reading numbers and only setting an increment in the corresponding array position is a great way to sort and quantize values as fast as they are read in. Fantastic shortcut to sorting in a jiff, unless presented with an unreasonable range of values requiring an unmanageably large array. To Microsoft's credit, they've dealt with hibernation better than ever, pretty reliable and they've attempted to overcome many of the variables that such a layer presents, but, I don't think the point of disabling it at least temporarily for troubleshooting is going to go away anytime soon.

  11. #56
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    I do not wish to get drawn into this discussion but it seems someone keeps trying.

    Yes I do like Win 8. It does everything Win 7 did and more, FOR ME! I however do not like all aspects of Win 8. I also believe the Win 8 Style apps are more designed for touch, which I do not have. The only Win 8 Style apps I use are a couple of games, MS Solitaire Collection and MS Mahjong. I spend the rest of my time on the Desktop UI.

    I have installed and use Start8 on my PC as a Start Menu replacement app, and have installed Classic Shell on my wife's PC. We use these similarly to the Win 7 Start Menu. I do not use Start8 for opening most of my apps, I use a Toolbar I developed for that. I believe the method I use, which I also used on Win 7, works best FOR ME!

    Win 8 does network better than Win 7, ON MY SYSTEM!

    If anyone asks my opinion these are the things I will tell them. It is my opinion that the Desktop UI is easier FOR ME when I have Start8 installed. My opinion is that the All Apps folder or screen takes ME too long to find things.

    I have had agreements and disagreements with all parties involved in this discussion. I do try to keep an open mind, and have tried many different methods of doing various things in Win 8. It is my opinion that the way I have customized Win 8 works best FOR ME! My method may not work for the next person.

    If an individual wishes to push his methods to his customers, and they are happy with that, then so be it. I also believe it is important to give choices and let others decide what will work best for them. If I give 3 alternatives, and they choose something other than what I use, so be it. It is their choice. If I am asked my opinion I will attempt to give an honest opinion to allow them to decide for themselves.

    Things that are facts on my system, might not be a fact on someone else's system. Each system is different. Please try to keep this in mind.

    It is not necessary to be disagreeable with each other. Whether you agree or disagree with someone else's opinions, kindly respect their right to state it. Individuals reading these discussions (I am unsure if any new member would take the time to read this whole thread) have to make up their own minds on the validity of the arguments. Win 8 is easy to customize to work and feel like Win 7. I know the arguments that we should not have to. I believe things are not going to change and this is the way of things so I have customized my system to work FOR ME. It looks and feels just like my Win 7 did, but seems to work better FOR ME. If you don't like it, change it!

    I guess I've taken enough of your time. Have a great day!
    BACKUP...BACKUP...BACKUP
    Have a Great Day! Ted


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  12. #57
    Bronze Lounger Drew1903's Avatar
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    Nothing is "pushed on" people. The, actual, rational is for some who are getting comfy w/ an OS that is different in some ways from the familiar having things listed alphabetically in a familiar style window accessible w/out changing screens is appealing for them. Many find w/ the lay out of WinQ, the All Apps screen, that it's hard to figure out where something is. And many, if they care to use Start, might like a bit of time w/ it rather than have no choice but, to use it. It's new ground for them so they can use a conventional window & just the Desktop... IF THEY WANT. Nothing is forced on anyone based on personal preference being projected on to them w/out them realizing it. They know 8 is different than the past and can have a normal, old-fashioned window for things & no screen changing , IF THEY WANT.

    And if people are to be respected and appreciated for their efforts to help... then that applies to everyone, btw.

    Cheers,
    Drew
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  13. #58
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    Enough of the back and forth everyone. This seems to happen with almost every thread having to do with the goodness or badness of Windows 8. There are strong feelings on each side of the argument.

  14. #59
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    Thank you Joe!
    BACKUP...BACKUP...BACKUP
    Have a Great Day! Ted


    Sony Vaio Laptop, 2.53 GHz Duo Core Intel CPU, 8 GB RAM, 320 GB HD
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