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  1. #91
    Plutonium Lounger Medico's Avatar
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    I'm with Clint on this. In fact I even create my Images from the Boot Disk. It just allows less complexity during this very important operation. I realize that most of the time there is not a problem from doing this from within Windows, but with my luck the one time I really need it a glitch will occur. No thanks, with my Imaging needs (I suppose I would be considered an average user in that a monthly Image is plenty for my system Imaging) the time it takes to boot to the Boot Disk to create or Restore my Image is worth the effort. The results speak for themselves for me.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medico View Post
    t just allows less complexity during this very important operation.
    I disagree, sorry. If it's about complexity, there is nothing as simple as starting the app from Windows and doing it. Shutting down, maybe even haven to choose a different boot media, although not exceedingly complex, is surely more complex than simply starting the app from Windows. Actually after booting from the disk, you will have to make the same exact choices that you do when you start from the app, so I don't see how that is more simple. I am saying this and when I restore, I usually restore booting from the boot disc.

    I also don't see how results speak from themselves. No results speak from themselves without a reference. Where is the reference or alternative that produced different, worse, results?

    This doesn't mean that what you are doing is wrong, not at all. You prefer to do it this way and there is no need to even provide explanations, it works for you and that's it.
    Now, when you present it as an alternative to something else and start comparing -results speak for themselves, you said - then you need to back the comparison with data. I don't see the data that allows you to say the results speak for themselves. For example, I always image from within Windows and never had an issue, as actually most people here do. How are your results any better than those obtained with the other, more used strategy, regarding image creation?
    Rui
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  3. #93
    5 Star Lounger
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    F. U. N.
    I don't know if what I described is available in the free Macrium version or not. After my problem with Acronis, detailed elsewhere on this blog, I went straight to the paid version of Macrium.

    Perhaps someone using the free version can chime in and resolve your question.

    Best,
    Dick

  4. #94
    Super Moderator CLiNT's Avatar
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    I was referring to "complexity" in terms of the instruction set the software is giving to the OS at a potentially vulnerable time
    during boot/restart.

    Any tests performed should be done via the bootdisk.
    I'm not saying that all restores should be done via the bootdisk, but it is important to test the restore in it's entirety
    from a standpoint of having no OS to boot from.
    I've been in positions previously where those instructions have gotten lost or corrupted.

    There is a right way of doing things, and then there is a half a**ed way.
    Don't lower the bar.
    DRIVE IMAGING
    Invest a little time and energy in a well thought out BACKUP regimen and you will have minimal down time, and headache.

    Windows 8.1, 64 bit
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  5. #95
    Super Moderator jwitalka's Avatar
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    There is a right way of doing things, and then there is a half a**ed way.
    Don't lower the bar.
    That's a little strong Clint. I personally think its all that more complex starting from the OS. There's no call insulting a different opinion.

    Jerry
    Last edited by RetiredGeek; 2013-11-23 at 17:52. Reason: fixed quote tag

  6. #96
    Super Moderator CLiNT's Avatar
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    It's a bit more than opinion, imo.
    It's a way a doing things based on logic and reasoning, not based on what is easiest or more convenient.
    DRIVE IMAGING
    Invest a little time and energy in a well thought out BACKUP regimen and you will have minimal down time, and headache.

    Windows 8.1, 64 bit
    Motherboard: DX58SO2*Chipset: X58 Express/Intel ICH10*BIOS: SOX5820J.86A.0888.2012.0129.2203*Processor: Intel Core i7 CPU X 990
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  7. #97
    Super Moderator jwitalka's Avatar
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    Emphasis on IMO. Still no reson to insult a differing opinion.

    Jerry

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLiNT View Post
    It's a bit more than opinion, imo.
    It's a way a doing things based on logic and reasoning, not based on what is easiest or more convenient.
    It's an opinion unless you back it up with something more than vague words about logic and reasoning and the use of foul language. The fact that you prefer to do things other way (and I don't even really understand which differing opinions you are targeting, since I saw no one defending what you supposedly attacked), is no reason to qualify other options, made available by the software that performs the restore, as illogical or unreasonable.

    You know, the good thing about computers is that they don't really care about what you tell them to do. Operating systems, CPUs, they are just programmed to follow instructions. For computers and CPUs, there are no complex instructions, there are just instructions to be followed.

    So, if you care to substantiate your position, I would be very interested in knowing about it, even more so because easy and convenient is really one of the reasons of the explosion of the use of computing by non specialists. If computer use was hard and complex, we would still be using character based user interfaces and computing would be the domain of a restricted few.

    Just as a curiosity, do you use Windows only from the command prompt or the powershell command interface or does easy and convenient suit you some times?
    Rui
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  9. #99
    Super Moderator CLiNT's Avatar
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    I was referring to "complexity" in terms of the instruction set the software is giving to the OS at a potentially vulnerable time
    during boot/restart.

    Any tests performed should be done via the bootdisk.
    I'm not saying that all restores should be done via the bootdisk, but it is important to test the restore in it's entirety
    from a standpoint of having no OS to boot from.
    I've been in positions previously where those instructions have gotten lost or corrupted.

    There is a right way of doing things, and then there is a half a**ed way.
    Don't lower the bar.
    DRIVE IMAGING
    Invest a little time and energy in a well thought out BACKUP regimen and you will have minimal down time, and headache.

    Windows 8.1, 64 bit
    Motherboard: DX58SO2*Chipset: X58 Express/Intel ICH10*BIOS: SOX5820J.86A.0888.2012.0129.2203*Processor: Intel Core i7 CPU X 990
    GPU: Nvidia GTX 580*Memory: Corsair 12 GB, 4x3@1600*PSU: Corsair HX1000*Hard drives: REVO X2 160GB*OCZ VERT X3 120GB*5 mechanical storage drives (12 TB) total.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLiNT View Post
    I was referring to "complexity" in terms of the instruction set the software is giving to the OS at a potentially vulnerable time
    during boot/restart.

    Any tests performed should be done via the bootdisk.
    I'm not saying that all restores should be done via the bootdisk, but it is important to test the restore in it's entirety
    from a standpoint of having no OS to boot from.
    I've been in positions previously where those instructions have gotten lost or corrupted.

    There is a right way of doing things, and then there is a half a**ed way.
    Don't lower the bar.
    The discussion on testing the full restore is long gone, no one was discussing that now. In this specific instance, the discussion was centered on FUN's question about restoring from the OS and how did that usually go. No one advised that as something that should be done regularly.

    Anyway, there is no point in discussing when your position is so well substantiated. Thank you for keeping the discussion at a high bar level, if your idea of high bar is repetition of non substantiated statements.
    Rui
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  11. #101
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    There is a right way of doing things, and then there is a half a**ed way.
    Don't lower the bar.
    Call me the devil's advocate, but I really like to challenge some assumptions. On this respect, I went and had a look at the Macrium Free online help system, "my own" Acronis TI 2014 manual and the EaseUS Todo Backup manual, to check what they advise on restoring disks and partitions.

    1. Macrium Free Online Help

    The Macrium Free help system offers no caveats whatsoever on starting a restore from the UI interface from within Windows. if you choose Restore disks and partitions in the help system (http://www.macrium.com/help.aspx), the restore instructions address restores made from within Windows. There is another set of instructions regarding the restore from the system disk. Here is how that section starts:

    "If your hard disk is still operational, Macrium Reflect can restore system images without using the rescue media. See Restore files and folders

    If your system is no longer operational or you are moving the operating system to a new system, then you can rescue the system using the Windows PE rescue media and an image file. Once the Windows PE rescue environment is loaded, you can restore an image from many sources including:"

    Basically, the Macrium manual suggests using the rescue media only when the hard disk is not operational.

    2. Acronis True Image 2014 manual

    Does Acronis think differently from Macrium?

    Chapter 6 on the Acronis manual is about data recovery. Section 6.1. is about recovering disks and partitions. 6.1.1 is dedicated to recover from crashes and there, after providing advice on determining the cause of the crash, it advises the use of the the recovery media, which makes sense, since the section is about recovering from crashes, which means it would be impossible to do the recovery from Windows.
    Sub-section 6.1.2 is about recovery of partitions and disks. When explaining the recovery process (obviously for a bootable system, since unbootable systems were covered in the previous section. The recovery process recommended by Acronis starts with - 1. Start Acronis True Image 2014.

    3. EaseUS Todo Backup manual

    What about the EaseUS Todo Backup manual? The recovery instructions start on page 32, with a description of the recovery process and illustrations of the app's screens that support such recovery. At the end of the description, before addressing dynamic drive recovery, this is what the manual states:

    "If there are some files opened or applications launched on the destination partition/disk, our product will require that you reboot and will execute the recovery task in Pre-OS mode."

    So, the description covered by the EaseUS manual, just like with Macrium and Acronis, is about using the app to start the recovery, from within Windows.

    Imaging manufacturers recommendations summary:

    What do we have, then? The manufacturers of probably the 3 imaging apps most used by regular Lounge members, in the documentation about their own products, not only recommend and explain recovering from within Windows, but offer no caveats whatsoever on doing so.



    Now, can this be "illogical" or "not based on reason"? How is using procedures recommended by 3 popular imaging product manufacturers, illogical or not based on reason? How can discussion of such procedures constitute "lowering the bar"? Actually RTFM is a top recommendation when addressing usage of any system, so probably following the instructions from such manuals seems the logical and reasonable thing to do and many users will do just that! So, while manuals cannot be seen as the ultimate redoubts of the truth, they do express manufacturers's recommendations. I am sure all these three manufacturers cannot possibly be advising such a bad thing, if it were that bad!?

    The truth is, we all have reasons to do what we do. Sometimes is just the habit, sometimes our own experiences make us choose one way over another. This doesn't mean that other ways of doing it are wrong, or whatever other qualifier we use to apply to those alternative ways. It's also a lot more relevant to the overall community here, if we opt to explain why we do what we do, or why we recommend what we recommend, instead of using qualifiers that we do not substantiate.

    P.S.: I usually don't restore my systems unless there is a problem, which most of the times, in the past, meant an unbootable system. In the rare cases where I did a restore from a bootable system, with the notable exception of the situation that lead to my first reply to FUN on this thread, when he raised this specific issue of restoring from Windows, I used the boot disk. Why? Probably because of habit, I had restored before in situations where the system was crashed and used the boot disk, so I just used what had worked before - something we do many, many times.
    Will I do that again, if I need to restore while having a bootable system? Well, probably not, now I am very interested in testing this myself, once more, just to be able to come back here and report, hopefully, on my success . I will do it only if I really need to, so that can take quite some time .
    Rui
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    R4

  12. #102
    Super Moderator CLiNT's Avatar
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    What the manufacturer says in this regard is totally irrelevant when it FIRST comes to fully TESTING the process in it's ENTIRETY.
    The bootable media that one creates is the heart and sole of the entire process.

    No bootdisk means no OS restoration WHEN IT REALLY COUNTS.

    You can restore from within your OS until your heart is content, but if your bootdisk is unreliable & your OS is unbootable, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.
    DRIVE IMAGING
    Invest a little time and energy in a well thought out BACKUP regimen and you will have minimal down time, and headache.

    Windows 8.1, 64 bit
    Motherboard: DX58SO2*Chipset: X58 Express/Intel ICH10*BIOS: SOX5820J.86A.0888.2012.0129.2203*Processor: Intel Core i7 CPU X 990
    GPU: Nvidia GTX 580*Memory: Corsair 12 GB, 4x3@1600*PSU: Corsair HX1000*Hard drives: REVO X2 160GB*OCZ VERT X3 120GB*5 mechanical storage drives (12 TB) total.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLiNT View Post
    What the manufacturer says in this regard is totally irrelevant when it FIRST comes to fully TESTING the process in it's ENTIRETY.
    The bootable media that one creates is the heart and sole of the entire process.

    No bootdisk means no OS restoration WHEN IT REALLY COUNTS.

    You can restore from within your OS until your heart is content, but if your bootdisk is unreliable & your OS is unbootable, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.
    In my opinion, no one was discussing that, when discussing about restoring from within Windows. As said twice before, the specific discussion was initiated from a post made by F.U.N. asking whether someone had tried it. The inference that the discussion was about testing the whole process from within Windows was your own and, excuse me for saying it, I see no justification for that inference. I never replied with such a scenario in mind.

    Of course, I can understand that some users may want to restore from Windows. Many times, easiness and convenience are key factors when making choices. Of course, restoring from Windows does not ensure the full restore process, in case of a non bootable system, will work, but that discussion is long gone, in what I'm concerned, I have already expressed my views on the issue clearly and I don't want to go back to it again.

    No bootdisk means no OS restoration WHEN IT REALLY COUNTS.
    I wouldn't be so definitive on this. It is totally possible to have a bootable system, with issues severe enough to justify a restore. I think you and Retired Geek restored to Windows 8 when the 8.1. upgrade didn't work the way you wanted. In such a circumstance, I am sure you thought restoring "really counted" as well, and restoring from the OS would quite likely be a valid solution.

    So, "when it really counts" is determined by the situation the user is facing. It may mean a bootable system too. Just saying ... as the devil's advocate .
    Rui
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    R4

  14. #104
    Super Moderator bbearren's Avatar
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    My 2¢

    I take "When it really counts" to mean a crashed system. I've crashed mine enough times with my tinkerin' to take it that way. As far as testing a recovery from within Windows, I would add the caveat of using that perhaps as a way of checking the validity and usability of a drive image. But I would first want to know for certain that my rescue boot media will work.

    If I had already tested the boot media and had confidence in it, then performing a recovery from within Windows in order to test a drive image might be OK. I just checked, and Image for Windows does not accommodate restoring Windows from within Windows. I didn't really know, as I have never considered doing an OS restore from anywhere other than boot media.

    "It is important to remember that you cannot restore an image over the partition that contains the image file you are using to restore. In addition, Image for Windows must be able to obtain a normal lock on the target partition; PHYLock is not used when restoring. Therefore, to restore the operating system itself, you'd need to restore it using Image for DOS, Image for Linux, or Image for Windows from an alternate location."

    For me, that alternate location is my dual boot or my boot CD or my boot USB stick. Additionally, I have Image for DOS installed on a separate partition on one of my hard drives, so I can boot to that, as well. I like having plenty of options. The dual boot is most convenient, as I can continue to use my computer while the other OS is being restored to the other hard drive.
    Create a new drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!

    "Let them that don't want it have memories of not gettin' any." "Gratitude is riches and complaint is poverty and the worst I ever had was wonderful." Brother Dave Gardner "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else." Sir Thomas Robert Deware. "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Do you understand?" Captain Jack Sparrow.
    Unleash Windows

  15. #105
    3 Star Lounger wavy's Avatar
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    Can we backup a bit here (no pun unintended) to the idea of booting the image in Win7 ?

    I have a W7 Home Premium computer over due for an imaging (I use Macrium Reflect ).
    Its my girl friend's game computer and not knowing how to backup the game state I do an image,once in a great while I admit. It would be nice to know if the image was intact enough to boot.
    Is this a feature native to W7 ? Are we talking a virtual drive? I guess that would be OK to.


    If I was really afraid of losing functionality for a period I would go with lanshark's suggestion of removable drive. Running A and saving image to second partition of B could the image be restored to the first partition of B? If so A could be removed and stored someplace safe and B tested. A now would be fully functional with no chance of a nonworking restore. Just my 2¢


















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