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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew1903 View Post
    ... To where we are now, playing catch-up, playing cat-n-mouse. And, at long last, saying we should be pro-active not, reactive. So does that mean the wheel should be re-invented...Redone knowing what we didn't back in the day and now make an internet where privacy isn't a worry. Is it possible? Or will underbellies be discovered same as the 1st time and we, still, be dogs chasing tails?

    Drew
    Hmmm ....

    Bill Gates: The Rolling Stone Interview
    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...tor=MediaREDEF
    Jeff Goodell | Rolling Stone | 13th March 2014

    He may well be “the most optimistic” man alive, as well as the richest. He sees the world as a “giant operating system” that “just needs to be debugged”, and his charitable foundation is on the case. Topics include surveillance, public health, inequality, Microsoft, Apple, America. “Say you’re gay in America, would you go back 50 years? Say you’re sick in America, do you want to go back 50 years? I mean, who are we kidding?” (6,400 words)

    Cheers.

  2. #47
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    Why do people buy new cars? Or new TVs? Or new anything? Many reasons - the item being replaced no longer works satisfactorily, the new item offers something more / better, there are legal or safety issues and on and on. In the end, it is a personal decision

    What I don't understand is all the angst and rending of garments over MS creating a new OS that isn't exactly like Win 7. Both Apple and Google have had great success creating tablet and smartphone product lines that bring many "computer" features to smaller, portable devices. These products rely primarily on touch. As they become more powerful, many owners are using them more and using their traditional computers less. MS had no meaningful participation in this changing technology scene. They could either do nothing, or develop their own integrated line of products & software to compete with Apple & Google. It makes perfect sense to me. We are already seeing a variety of "convertible" PCs coming to market, that allow users to separate the display from the keyboard or stand and use it as a tablet - or reconnect it and use the device as a traditional desktop or laptop. To me, this is an exciting (and overdue) initiative by MS to remain relevant in our changing computer landscape.

    Back in January 2013 I was a happy Win 7 user. MS was offering an upgrade to Win 8 Pro (a $199 value) for $39.99. At that price, why not give it a try? So, I upgraded my laptop and started the learning curve. Bought a reference book. Liked what I saw, so I took advantage of the MS offer to upgrade my desktop. Subsequently upgraded to Win 8.1. Bought Woody’s 8.1 Dummies book. Still like it. Would I have upgraded at the full price? No. Nor should anyone else with decent hardware who is happy with Win 7. But if you need a new PC, or want to take advantage of the flexibility of the new convertible PC offerings, go for it. You get two ways of computing for the price of one.

  3. #48
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    This was supposed to be a reply to David Wolf back on page 2...guess I did something wrong there <g>.

    Yes, David...I believe that you have this right. I have just installed my first Win8 PC (for my wife). What MS does with each release (although I understand "why" they do it) is equivalent to going to the supermarket and finding that they have moved EVERY aisle somewhere else. So, before people criticize me for not being current or not wanting to change, I worked in the IT field since 1966 and retired last year from a three letter Government agency. I have worked on "most" platforms, developed software in "many" different languages over those years therefore, believe me are more used to change than most people. The last 15 years or so were spent on IBM mainframes where "consistency" is key. OS upgrades go in and everything previously just works (for the most part <g>).

    Back to Win8.....when I first "customized" the Win8 PC (after the first boot)...I noticed the part about about logging on to an "outlook.com" account and did that (although I would rather have had a local account). Yes, I now know that you can...let me explain....I "converted" the outlook.com account (my wife) to a local account. Win8 then refused to take either the new password or the old one (and at that time I had only one account on the PC (which by that time was hosed up - I guess I won't do that again). Yes, I was sure about the new password. I spent about 3 hours downloading multiple "password reset" pieces of software (none of which worked as they didn't even recognize Win8.1 as the OS). Eventually, I said "fuggedaboutit" and put the PC back to as delivered and re-installed everything I had done over the previous few days. Even getting the PC to bring up "system recovery" was something of a PITA. Nothing delivered by HP (in this case) drew my attention to the vagaries of which function keys should be used to get into "system recovery" or the vagaries of turning off "secure boot" before doing it.

    Rant over...<g>

    Kevin
    Last edited by kevmeist; 2014-05-02 at 08:43. Reason: corrected typo

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew1903 View Post
    I'll add that when the internet was born few saw what was coming. In the day security, hacker, piracy, bots, root-kits, worms, Trojans, malware, adware, spyware, none of this was front & centre as it is now. The whole trip of firewalls and multi-level, redundant, protection...even data storage & data recovery. It has all bubbled to the surface as we started using this internet thing.

    So, gee, if it wasn't discovered that the thing is not Fort Knox. It vulnerable, it has flaws, a weak points and holes in it. Realising that precipitated all kinds of things. To where we are now, playing catch-up, playing cat-n-mouse. And, at long last, saying we should be pro-active not, reactive. So does that mean the wheel should be re-invented...Redone knowing what we didn't back in the day and now make an internet where privacy isn't a worry. Is it possible? Or will underbellies be discovered same as the 1st time and we, still, be dogs chasing tails?

    Now, that we are so wise & enlightened, is the ideal attainable? Or must we keep dealing w/ the challenges of this. If we started over, could we, at this stage and is it worth it?

    Drew
    Attachment 38554
    Excellent post. I would add that the "powers that be" do not want it to change. The current "user data as income" model is very lucrative for some.

    imo, it will change. All they're talking about is encryption being the default standard for data. It's a matter of how long. Then there will be new issues, of course.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Wolf View Post
    Having been around long enough to remember the "Good Ol' Days" of DOS and TSRs, I also recall buying my first memory upgrade, which I believe was a "whopping" 16KB expansion, for over a hundred bucks. I also recall dropping a few hundred bucks more for a "massive" 110MB hard disk that was certainly "more than anyone could ever fill up." I'm happy to have lived through that era and all the technological advances that have come along in between, but I am also thankful that Moore's Law has held!

    I often wish that more operation-intensive software could once again be distilled down to machine language, eliminating bottlenecks in speed that occur with so much bloated code and the massive libraries that high-level programming uses. That would vastly reduce the need to constantly upgrade one's computing power to perform the same tasks. Of course then the symbiotic relationship between hardware manufacturers and software developers might fade a bit.
    When I first started out, 20MB hard drives were "available", but they cost over $2000.00, which was more than the $1995.00 that I spent on my Osborne II.

    There were also 5MB hard drives, which IBM used with their mainframes for IPL (Initial Program Load), and 10MB hard drives, which I'm not sure what they were used for, but they weren't "available", or at least I didn't know where to get one.

    Later when I bought (and built) my Heathkit H19 computer, a 20MB hard drive was available for $695.00. If I had bought one the computer would have been the H89, but I decided to use it Floppy only and buy the hard drive later, but later when I arrived at the Heathkit store ready to spend the money, they told me that the 20MB hard drive kits to upgrade the H19 to the H89 were no longer available.

    WD is talking about 6, 8, and 10TB hard drives. in a few years they will be making and selling 20TB drives, which will hold a million times more data than the 20MB hard drives that were available 30 years ago, and which will cost about 5% of what the 20MB drives did. I'm impressed.

    Of course, SSDs are becoming more reliable, and cheaper. At some point They will be cheaper per byte stored, more reliable, be physically smaller, use less power, and produce less heat, vibration, and noise than spinning rust, so it's possible that hard drives will not get to 20TB before they are technologically obsolete. Oh, well.
    Last edited by Prescott; 2014-05-02 at 08:31. Reason: It to If

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prescott View Post
    When I first started out, 20MB hard drives were "available", but they cost over $2000.00, which was more than the $1995.00 that I spent on my Osborne II.

    There were also 5MB hard drives, which IBM used with their mainframes for IPL (Initial Program Load), and 10MB hard drives, which I'm not sure what they were used for, but they weren't "available", or at least I didn't know where to get one.

    Later when I bought (and built) my Heathkit H19 computer, a 20MB hard drive was available for $695.00. If I had bought one the computer would have been the H89, but I decided to use it Floppy only and buy the hard drive later, but later when I arrived at the Heathkit store ready to spend the money, they told me that the 20MB hard drive kits to upgrade the H19 to the H89 were no longer available.

    WD is talking about 6, 8, and 10TB hard drives. in a few years they will be making and selling 20TB drives, which will hold a million times more data than the 20MB hard drives that were available 30 years ago, and which will cost about 5% of what the 20MB drives did. I'm impressed.

    Of course, SSDs are becoming more reliable, and cheaper. At some point They will be cheaper per byte stored, more reliable, be physically smaller, use less power, and produce less heat, vibration, and noise than spinning rust, so it's possible that hard drives will not get to 20TB before they are technologically obsolete. Oh, well.
    I remember my first HD (10Mb on a Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 4) back in 1982 (I think it was). Partitioned into 4 * 2.5 Mb drives as the OS couldn't handle more. I remember increasing the clock rate of said TRS-80 from 2 MHz to 3.3 MHz. What a deal! My first "big" HD was a 320Mb drive in 1990 or 1991 maybe. It cost $1500 at the time. Of course my 19" Nanao monitor (all 85lbs of it) also cost $2K at the time.

    Kevin
    Last edited by kevmeist; 2014-05-02 at 08:49. Reason: Add monitor reference

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prescott View Post
    When I first started out, 20MB hard drives were "available", but they cost over $2000.00, which was more than the $1995.00 that I spent on my Osborne II.

    There were also 5MB hard drives, which IBM used with their mainframes for IPL (Initial Program Load), and 10MB hard drives, which I'm not sure what they were used for, but they weren't "available", or at least I didn't know where to get one.

    Later when I bought (and built) my Heathkit H19 computer, a 20MB hard drive was available for $695.00. If I had bought one the computer would have been the H89, but I decided to use it Floppy only and buy the hard drive later, but later when I arrived at the Heathkit store ready to spend the money, they told me that the 20MB hard drive kits to upgrade the H19 to the H89 were no longer available.

    WD is talking about 6, 8, and 10TB hard drives. in a few years they will be making and selling 20TB drives, which will hold a million times more data than the 20MB hard drives that were available 30 years ago, and which will cost about 5% of what the 20MB drives did. I'm impressed.

    Of course, SSDs are becoming more reliable, and cheaper. At some point They will be cheaper per byte stored, more reliable, be physically smaller, use less power, and produce less heat, vibration, and noise than spinning rust, so it's possible that hard drives will not get to 20TB before they are technologically obsolete. Oh, well.
    I remember my first HD (10Mb on a Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 4) back in 1982 (I think it was). Partitioned into 4 * 2.5 Mb drives as the OS couldn't handle more. I remember increasing the clock rate of said TRS-80 from 2 MHz to 3.3 MHz. What a deal! My first "big" HD was a 320Mb drive in 1990 or 1991 maybe. It cost $1500 at the time.

    Kevin

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew1903 View Post
    You know we can talk technical details for hours. We can dispute feature-sets for days. Argue & debate, enthusiasm & praise, negativity & cynicism. OR it can be discussed on a very personal, daily use level...

    ... Either way, I have found Win8 fun, easy, enjoyable, impressive and, for me @ least, problem free. Absolutely, I recommend it and the recent Updates make it more appealing to people than ever.

    ... Yes, it's the best OS MS has produced. Whilst it can be said perception is subjective, an IT Pro has to be objective and fair. 2 years ago I said much of the views on Windows 8 were a matter of attitude, I, still, firmly believe that. Taking a very open-minded approach I have been left w/ a very positive feeling towards the OS. It's good, fun, easy and, for me (& many others) downright enjoyable.

    Cheers,
    Drew
    Attachment 38520
    I agree with a different attitude. Not because Win 8 is a better OS, but because Win 8 is trying harder to place itself in the future.

    I look at Win 8.1 Update at home, and think about work where I expect seismic transitions in the upcoming years. I work for a state government, and I guess there are many XP-originated client-server applications across the various 'business' units. A couple years ago, a modernization project went into place.

    I guess it's 50-50 that my workplace will move to a Win 7 standard client in the next couple of years. So back in May 2013, when I decided on Win 8, my main question was simply "Should I choose an OS for my future, or my workplace?"

    There was no question about staying with Windows, but which one?

    In terms of my workplace, although I presume Windows will continue, because of my prior worklifes, and because of client-server and the cloud, I think what I learn on my own with respect to sitting at a client node at home is irrelevant in terms of the OS at work. If I was a network administrator, the network OS would matter, but I'm not.

    The advantage of Win 8.1 Update over Win 7, in my 'personal computing' eyes has little to do with elements of the user interface I use, but how my user interface plugs me into the network applications, and tomorrow's cloud-based apps.

    I don't liken Microsoft's introduction of Win 8 to Vista or ME. I see Win 8's introduction like the appearance of IE 6. I see Win 8 as more important to Microsoft's network apps like server and sql server. Whether it's intranet or internet. In this vein, what lies beneath the user interface is more important to Microsoft and the enterprise.

    Did Office 365 come out before or after Win 8?

    One might say I saw Win 7 as a compromise with it's feet in XP, and now, Win 8.1 Update as not. For me, the compromise did not promise any new advantage.

    Not to mention Microsoft's three year product cycle. So I thought, "Which position would I rather be in when 2015 Win 9 appears?"

    Win 8's advantage for me? It's a better gamble.
    Last edited by dried_squid; 2014-05-02 at 14:27. Reason: rephrase

  9. #54
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    "Which position would I rather be in when 2015 Win 9 appears?"
    I had hopes for Windows 9 pulling it back to center, but in fact, now I think it will just be more of the same.

    As to the point that you are trying to make, that suffering through three years of Windows 8 (one more year now) will somehow put you in a better position to take advantage of Windows 9's benefits, I don't think so. It will be easier to transition from Windows 7 to Windows 9 than to transition from Windows 7 to Windows 8 to Windows 9.

    In any case when Windows 9 is released, I expect to stay with Windows 7, and reap the benefits of ... Windows 7.

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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prescott View Post
    It will be easier to transition from Windows 7 to Windows 9 than to transition from Windows 7 to Windows 8 to Windows 9.
    Why? (Seems strange if you think Windows 9 is going to be similar to Windows 8.)

    I suffered more on Windows 7 than Windows 8.

    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceR View Post
    Why? (Seems strange if you think Windows 9 is going to be similar to Windows 8.)

    I suffered more on Windows 7 than Windows 8.

    Bruce
    Hello Bruce 'Super Moderator',

    Pardon my somewhat off-topic question here, but I now question my assumption that Windows 8.1 Update would aid my education about 'apps'. And I'm embarrassed to start a new thread.

    What is an app? I searched on 'what is a microsoft app', and read some Microsoft Store materials, but it's remains unclear.

    Question: Does an app require a live internet connection to be fully-functional? Eg. a web application with the 'View' on my device, and 'Model' and 'Controller' somewhere on the internet.

    Question: If the answer is no, when I'm at the Microsoft Store, how would I identify these 'no internet required' apps? Or, what about the apps included with Win 8?

    By the way, my periodic and cursory scans of the available apps have never inspired my interest.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by dried_squid; 2014-05-02 at 18:28. Reason: grammar

  13. #57
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    I think you are right, the hardware (new processors and SSD) gets most of the credit for speed. UEFI gets credit for security. Websites get most of the credit for lack of security.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dried_squid View Post
    ...
    Question: Does an app require a live internet connection to be fully-functional? Eg. a web application with the 'View' on my device, and 'Model' and 'Controller' somewhere on the internet.
    ...
    I tried three apps - Help+Tips, News, and Photos. Twice - with and w/out internet.
    Help+Tips runs without the internet.
    News continues to display content even without internet.
    Photos runs without the internet.

    Tried People and Calendar with internet but not logged-in with a Microsoft account. No diceee.

    Seems like a mixed bag. One complication - I never store things under my user name in c:, but outside, in d:. An old habit. Took a minute to find the photos I took. Figured it out.

    Does an app require a live internet connection? @ It depends.

    Does an app description mention internet connection requirements? @ No description, just like desktop apps. Is there an equivalent to a "404" code? No. Are their informational messages if there is no internet connection? Either initially, or indirectly by requesting log-in into your Microsoft account.

    For things like the News, aside from selection, I was not able to highlight and copy text. For me, that's a negative.

    Otherwise, Help+Tips and Photo were innocent enough.

    Well, as far as apps in Win 8 are concerned, I'll accept the good, Win 8.1 Update, along with the uninteresting.
    Last edited by dried_squid; 2014-05-03 at 04:14. Reason: addition

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dried_squid View Post
    For things like the News, aside from selection, I was not able to highlight and copy text. For me, that's a negative.
    I'm not sure what "aside from selection" means.

    I just copied and pasted text from a News app article.

    Bruce

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  17. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceR View Post
    I'm not sure what "aside from selection" means.

    I just copied and pasted text from a News app article.

    Bruce
    Acknowledging another Win 8 advantage. But first, the reply.

    Bruce R - My error. With a different app, I was able to highlight, copy, and then paste text. Tried a page in News again, was able to Copy+Paste. Not sure why I couldn't do it before. Must have been a SMUE, stupid moron user error. Thanks for the reply.

    With respect to advantages, for me with no experience with a touch interface, Win 8 basic apps and my first stroke-able touchpad has exposed me to previously unknown user interface experiences.

    This is an advantage to Win 8. For me, it's a better value than a smart phone or pad with touch and internet. With this perspective, plus my requirement for an everyday "desktop" machine, the no-frills $289 no-touchscreen HP laptop with Win 8 back in May 2013 has been justified.

    I think it was Fred Langa who suggested the touchpad may replace the mouse in the workplace. Maybe. It may be "cheaper" to do mouse and touchpad vs. mouse and touchscreen.

    Have a good weekend.

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