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  1. #1
    gmae
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    Outline Numbering

    Is there any conceivable way of having more than 9 levels in a list template?

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    You can't have more than nine levels in one list template but you can have several list templates in one document. So you could have an 'outline' that 'virtually' contains more than 9 levels.

    The trick would be to make sure that you very carefully set-up both list templates:

    (1) Use Outline List Templates (not numbering or bullets)
    (2) Name your list templates (in Listnum Field List Name)
    (3) Associate every level in your list templates with a style. (you would probably want to name your styles in your first list template, Heading 1, Heading 2, etc. and then, for your second list template, Heading 10, Heading 11 and so forth but you'll need to create your styles before you begin to define your list template).
    (4) you can then use your list numbering simply by activating the appropriate style name (and you can add the additional styles into your TOC definition, etc.).

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    Silver Lounger Charles Kenyon's Avatar
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    Re: Outline Numbering

    No, there is no way to do this. There are some work-arounds, though. Before you go too far with your template, take a look at
    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm>Word's Numbering Explained</A> (http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Number...gExplained.htm)

    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm>How to Create a Template, Part 2</A> (http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Custom...platePart2.htm)

    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.addbalance.com/usersguide/numbering.htm>Legal Numbering</A> (www.addbalance.com/usersguide/numbering.htm)

    <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.microsystems.com/fra_sevenlawsofoutlinenumbering.htm>Seven Laws of Outline Numbering</A> (http://www.microsystems.com/fra_seve...enumbering.htm)
    Charles Kyle Kenyon
    Madison, Wisconsin

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    I hope this makes sense -- you've said you want to dispense with Heading 1. Why? Within the legal community Heading 1 may very well be "Article 1" (or "One"). If you want to call is "Section 1" (again, in the legal community, normally obtained through heading 2) you can just adjust heading 1 to show "Section" 1 - rather than Article 1. As you are aware, Headings 1-9 are shipped with Word and can be modified to suit your firm/company's requirements but you'll run into difficulties, if for example, you want to create a style called heading 10. It will allow the style creation, but linking it in B&N is a problem.
    If for some reason you need to create a new document based on a particular template and need to disregard Heading 1, you can run into difficulties as Word works on the premise of "restart numbering after higher level list". You could modify Heading 1 style to suit the document but you'd need to step through all the styles (Headings 1-9) to adjust those styles for that particular document.
    You can add all the styles you want within your template, for example: your Document is finished but you need to add Schedules which require numbering used by say, Headings 1-4. You can't use Headings 1-4 in the Schedules without messing up the front end of the doc. So you create a new style and call it, say, "Schedule 1". This will allow you to have Schedule 1 using "1" as in Heading 1; create a style called Schedule 2 (using your heading 2 numbering - say (a)); Schedule 3 (..."(i")), ...etc. And of course, your shortcut keys will need to be adjusted for those newly-created styles. i.e. Heading 1 we have assigned to Alt+1; Heading 2 is Alt+2, etc. For Schedule 1 we use Alt+Shift+1, etc. etc. HTH
    Patricia

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    I might point out that research has shown that using more than 4 levels in a document makes it extremely difficult to follow. Even if you use 4 headings plus 4 for an appendix, that still leaves an extra one.[img]/w3timages/icons/2cents.gif[/img]

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    <font face="Georgia">We've got some very stable templates and don't have any problems (unless of course someone decides to cut & paste from other docs - such as WP - without using Paste Special bringing in extraneous styles. Then they come crying for help and we do our trouble-shooting).
    But Phil ... only 4 levels? We're talking lawyers here (no offence Charles K [img]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/img] - I enjoy your addbalance stuff and especially your non-lawyerlike approach to document management! Our guys (especially the big corporate real estate types) frequently utilize all of headings 1-9 and then use Schedule, Appendix, Exhibits styles. I try to tell them when their documents exceed 150 pages they've said too much! [img]/w3timages/icons/yadda.gif[/img]</font face=georgia>
    Patricia

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    Hi Patricia:
    <hr>But Phil ... only 4 levels? We're talking lawyers here (no offence Charles K - I enjoy your
    addbalance stuff and especially your non-lawyerlike approach to document management! Our guys
    (especially the big corporate real estate types) frequently utilize all of headings 1-9 and then use
    Schedule, Appendix, Exhibits styles. I try to tell them when their documents exceed 150 pages they've
    said too much!<hr>

    Well, as I said, using more than 4 levels in a document makes it difficult to follow. I don't know anyone who considers reading a contract "light reading". I rest my case![img]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/img]

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    <font face="Georgia"> Ah, yes, Phil. Unfortunately for software support types, lawyers do not consider contract reading to be unwieldy - I think it's their bedtime reading [img]/w3timages/icons/yikes.gif[/img] and it's only the software /help desk/support people who cringe. But I know that we're particularly lucky inasmuch as we have created templates that really work with Word's 'complicated' (now isn't THAT polite of me!) numbering system. And although we curse the intricacies of Word's numbering we do seem to have mastered the beast. Not alone of course but with great input from Woody et al, Microsystems, the great MVP sites, all you people here at the Lounge, etc., etc.
    Very Best, Phil. I've enjoyed reading your responses at Woody's and at another location for many years.
    Patricia

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    Thanks for making the point, Phil.
    And succinctly put, too.
    So often we do things because we have the capability ...
    without thinking through the consequences.
    We find solutions ...
    for which there is no problem.
    I've got a confession to make.
    I thought I'd make a reply with ten levels ...
    but ...
    I'm running out of things to say!!!

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    [img]/w3timages/icons/yep.gif[/img]Indeed~
    Patricia

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    Something that I didn't see mentioned or perhaps I just didn't catch it in my late night reading [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img] is that when a different set of styles is created for a second list template in the same document, wouldn't the outline level need adjusted to each one of them in the Paragraph formatting dialog box so that they will be recognized by the Document Map, Outline View and TOC?

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    Hi,

    You're right that is something that wasn't mentioned, and is something one may want to do when creating additional styles for outline numbered lists.
    For these to be retained as part of the style definition, I wouldn't add these via Format>Paragraph, but rather via Format>Style>Modify etc.

    It does seem to turn out that for many of these extra numbering outlnes, the need is not there to include them in the table of contents. For instance, at my firm we also use a Schedule 1 etc. series for numbering in schedules, appendices etc. But this numbering almost never gets listed in the TOC; we only put the schedule headings in. (This may just be a quirk of how the documents are done at my firm.)

    It's also worth mentioning that it's not absolutely necessary to use the built-in Heading styles for your main outline numbering scheme; I know this goes against orthodoxy but it's quite functional to do without Heading 1-9.

    Gary

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    Hi WW,

    Good to hear of others who have eschewed Headings 1-9 and thrived.

    For some leads on metadata, see this earlier thread - gives a link to a download available from Payne Consulting (I've meant to but haven't looked at that yet). I think there was also some discussion of this topic in a Bob Blacksberg column in an issue of WOW some months ago - I think he mentioned his firm was working on a similar utility.

    Speaking of TOC - the hidden paragraph mark trick is used pretty universally, and I think is also incorporated into some of the "for pay" utilities - I recall looking at a demo from Payne Consulting relating to this too.

    Like you, I wrote a macro for this.
    But, we had a special problem in our documents, that required a special solution - I wonder if anyone else has encountered this one:

    Suppose it's your third level numbered paragraphs (let's say they are numbered (a), ( etc.) that will feature that run-in heading, where we want only the heading to show in the TOC.

    Using the hidden paragraph mark trick, it's easy enough to have only the headings go into the TOC.

    But, lawyers being lawyers, they insist on using the (a)-level numbering inconsistently in their legal documents: in some places they feature run-in headings (that need to go into the TOC), and in other places in the same run of outline numbered clauses, they want to use the (a)-level numbered paragraphs just as text only, with no headings (and no TOC entry for these).

    So the question was: how do you get the "(a) with heading" paragraphs to show up in the TOC, while leaving the "(a) without heading" paragraphs out of the TOC. I don't believe this is something which the commercial utilities can handle.

    This gave us fits until a friend of mine (props to Stephan Ip) wrote for us (I was new to VBA at the time) a utility that customizes the creation of TOCs in these documents, and tests conditions in these paragraphs to determine which get included in the TOC, and which don't - a great solution which we use every day.

    Has anyone else faced this particular problem, and what sort of solutions have you found?

    Gary

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    Hi Pam:
    <hr>And speaking of TOC - what about instances of partial entries requiring use of the Hidden Paragraph Marker. I've written a macro that does this chore for us but I wondered what style others are applying to the "second half" of the paragraph. I created an unnumbered companion style to the numbered list style and chained it back to the numbered list so that if a user hit enter at the end of the second half of the paragraph, the numbering would seamlessly continue. I wondered how others might have handled this.
    <hr>

    I'm curious. Are you talking about something like:

    Subject that goes into TOC: Body of text that appears to be in the same paragraph but is in a different style so won't be picked up by TOC.

    Is that right or could you go into more detail about why & when you use a hidden paragraph mark? Does your second style "mirror" the first style, except for the numbering?

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    Re: Outline Numbering

    Hi Pam:

    Thanks for the explanation. Do I understand correctly that for each of the unnumbered companion styles (that don't show up in the TOC), the "style for the next paragraph" (in Format/Style/Modify/) is set to be its companion outline numbered style?

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