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    Saving graphics problem (2000)

    I have documents containing scalable graphics, which I'd like to extract and save as (vector) files for later use. Copying then pasting is not an option - I'd need to save to files in a format like EMF or WMF. I think these graphics were done originally in Corel Draw and pasted into the Word docs (they never existed as files). Problem is that no matter how I try to transfer them, and into whatever application, I can not paste or save them as scalable vector files. Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Sample attached.

    thanks

    Alan
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    There was a recent thread - in which you participated too - in which the conclusion was that it is impossible to get vector graphics out of Word intact. (The thread starts at <post#=264178>post 264178</post#>)

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    That thread actually inspired me to ask this specific question <img src=/S/grin.gif border=0 alt=grin width=15 height=15>. I hadn't assumed that the conclusion was that it was "impossible" though. My impression is that it all depends on what has been done with the graphic once it's inside Word. I can, for instance, draw up some shapes and WordArt in Word and copy them out to a graphics app, saving as a vector file. It's just these particular graphics I'm having trouble with, and I was hoping someone might hit on a successful extraction.

    Alan

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    Hi Alan:
    I was able to copy & paste the graphic into IrfanView & save as EMF. However, I did have some problems with crashes. I don't know enough about graphics to know whether I accomplished anything for you.
    Cheers,

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    Super Moderator jscher2000's Avatar
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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    <P ID="edit" class=small>(Edited by jscher2000 on 25-Jun-03 11:34. I didn't realize you had a sample, so I looked at it and...)</P>Are they embedded as OLE objects, rather than pictures? If so, you may be able to launch them in an application that is "vector drawing aware."

    Addendum: The graphic in your example document is just a bitmap. Word's "scaling" probably is a kind of interpolation rather than anything vector-based.

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    Thanks Jefferson. The doc in which they appear is "self-contained", so I don't think there's any OLE involved - I don't know much about this stuff though. How did you ascertain it is a bitmap? I'm having difficulty with this idea, since they scale so smoothly over such a wide range. If I copy the example I included, then Paste Special as a bitmap format, the result is quite different to the original. Moreover, any (significant) resizing results in a distinct case of the "jaggies" and pixel thinning, in contrast to the behaviour of the original. I do know that the image components can't be ungrouped in Word, so they don't seem like regular collections of vector objects. I have found this with other scalable vector-based images too - Word being unable to ungroup, but the image as a whole being smoothly scalable like a vector object.

    Alan

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    Thanks Phil. Unfortunately IrfanView will only save files in raster/ bitmap formats. The EMF extension, in this case, simply "wraps" the bitmap object in the EMF headers, and the result won't be a scalable vector file. I guess this is provided for compatibility or similar. I remember in the days of WinHelp 3 when it was sometimes necessary to save a bitmapped graphic as .WMF because that's all the help compiler understood. Thanks for your efforts though.

    Alan

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    The sample you have attached is ALREADY a bitmap and not a vector graphic. PhotoEditor tells me it is a grey scale image of 707 x 1246 pixels.

    This translation would have occurred when you pasted the graphic in using the HTML format as you noted in your text. HTML formats don't usually support vector graphics (excluding Flash and SVG formats which are formats supported by Microsoft competitors). It is most likely that Word's HTML format filter converted the graphic on your behalf to either GIF or JPG. If you need to retain the vector format when pasting into Word, try pasting as a metafile.

    Corel Draw does come with Corel Trace which may be of some use in converting the bitmap back to a vector graphic but I wouldn't hold my breath.
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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    Super Moderator jscher2000's Avatar
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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    > How did you ascertain it is a bitmap?
    I clicked it and it has black "handles" for resizing, so I knew it was an inline shape. I pressed Alt+F9 to show me field codes and there were none. If it were embedded as an OLE object, it would have shown me something like:

    { EMBED PBrush } -or-
    { EMBED PhotoshopElements.Image.2 s }

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    Jefferson, I am guessing your question is replying to me so I will respond accordingly.
    There are multiple clues to diagnosing that this graphic in Word is already a bitmap - all of them obscure.
    1. <LI>The text in the file says "This graphic was copied and pasted as (default) HTML Format" - this immediately jarred with me as native HTML doesn't support vector graphics and the vector graphics that can be supported rely on non-Microsoft technologies - hardly the thing I would expect an MS filter to cater for.
      <LI>The first thing I did was copy and Paste Special to see what options I had. In earlier versions of Word this appears more intelligent but Word 2002 seems to give me all options irrespective of the clipboard format. Pasting as an EMF would normally allow me to ungroup the object if it was a vector graphic. This image didn't allow this.
      <LI>Viewing the Picture Toolbar when the graphic is selected shows that you can fiddle the brightness and contrast et.al. which you can't do with Vector graphics.
      <LI>If you right click it and apply a fill colour you will discover that no colour results. This indicates a solid white background that you wouldn't expect with a vector graphic.
      <LI>If you stretch it a bit and then zoom in you will see jaggies as well which indicate that you are at least viewing a bitmap (but doesn't eliminate an EPS with a tiff header)
      <LI>Copying and Pasting (Special as EMF) into Visio allowed an ungroup that resulted in a single bitmap object. This is consistent with a bitmap within a metafile format.
      <LI>Finally, copying and pasting as new file into PhotoEditor gave me a result. I don't get a result pasting other vector graphics this way.
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    Thank you both Andrew & Jefferson for the help on this. I bow to your collective superior expertise <img src=/S/salute.gif border=0 alt=salute width=15 height=20> that it must actually be a bitmap. I checked in the original Word doc, and the images appear to behave in the same way as the pasted (HTML) image I attached here, so they must be bitmaps also I'm guessing. I must admit that this is quite an education for me. I had no idea that Word's "smoothing" ability on resize would be able to produce the apparent smooth scaling effect it does. I think what threw me here is that if I pasted the image using any format other than HTML, then the jaggies were very pronounced, rather than visible only under zoom. What would be the reason for this, since the other available formats are also bitmap-based? I therefore assumed that the originals must have been some form of vector file, which could not be ungrouped, produced in Corel Draw. Anyway, I'm archiving both of your hints for any future detective work required. Many thanks.

    Alan

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    I had a random thought that might not be relevant. When Word creates HTML, it uses "Vector Markup Language" (if you let it) to create shape objects. I wonder whether pasting "as HTML" somehow can vectorize a bitmap inside Word?? Since HTML export converts your picture to PNG in my test, that doesn't really help you.

    I opened your sample document again using the Recover Text From Any File filter (file type) and the embedded file name is listed as 1test.tif. I really don't know anything about the TIFF format; or should I say, TIFF seems to refer to a number of different formats or standards. Anyway, I think I'm out of ideas.

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    Alan

    The size of the jaggies is related to the size of the pixels. I am guessing here but I expect that the HTML filter you pasted in with must be inserting the graphic at a higher resolution (more pixels packed into a smaller space) so the jaggies are less noticeable. You are right in that Word does appear to be smoothing the graphic on screen which makes it appear slightly fuzzy and smoother. This is typical of anti-aliased bitmaps. A vector graphic in the same place would appear to be jaggier on screen because it won't be displayed with anti-aliasing but will print better. If you copy that graphic and do a paste special as a bitmap it will appear very rough on screen because of two factors - lower resolution and no anti-aliasing.

    When you do insert graphics drawn in Corel then I would nearly always recommend a vector format and the two ways I attempt this are...
    <UL><LI>Save the Corel file as an EMF or WMF and then use Word's Insert > Picture > From File to import it. Unfortunately the mileage on this method varies as Corel don't seem to have the EMF and WMF filters right. My opinion is they stuffed the filter after Corel version 5 and I haven't seen great results since then. You may have better luck depending on which version of Corel you have.
    <LI>Copy from Corel and then use Paste Special > As a Picture in Word. I have better luck with this method although it offends my sensibilities to have to rely on it.[/list]When all else fails (usually when the metafile includes a bitmap), I might resort to saving the file from Corel as a bitmap but I have to pay close attention to the resolutions of the component bitmaps in deciding what resolution and colour depth I choose for the bitmap.

    I generally don't save as EPS although that may be a useful format if you always output to a Postscript device.
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    Thanks again for all that additional information Andrew. I must also confess my (near total) ignorance of screen & printer resolution issues here - I'd always used the simple criterion of jaggies => raster, without knowledge of some of these deeper issues. The problem with this project generally, is that I've had little/ no access to original graphic files, and other than knowing they were done (by "somebody") in Corel, I'm pretty much in the dark.

    I did get some copies of .cdr files, which I can't open without a copy of Corel. I can, however, view thumbnails of the canvasses used. They appear to be just a mess of the individual graphics used in the Word docs, all scattered over a few canvasses. This really doesn't help in knowing exactly how they were pasted into Word in the first place (raster or vector). I also have no history of how they may have been fiddled with subsequently.

    I certainly adopt your approach to saving such graphics myself - as WMF or EMF, in individual files. I have had occassion to include a bitmap object within a vector file, but can't recall having any problems. I'd imagine running into difficulties when resizing though... it's giving me a headache just thinking about it actually <img src=/S/headthrob.gif border=0 alt=headthrob width=15 height=15>.

    many thanks for you help

    Alan

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    Re: Saving graphics problem (2000)

    I see what you're suggesting here Jefferson. I was wrong on my call about it being a vector graphic, and I'm still thrown with the idea of some bitmaps resizing in different ways to others, so I wouldn't even hazard my instinctive guess of NO. <img src=/S/grin.gif border=0 alt=grin width=15 height=15> I'd guess that because all of the raster -> vector conversions I've seen are decidedly pretty "rough" with what they produce, and the graphic I have is pretty "clean".

    As to why it's called 1test.tif I have zero idea! Not just the extension, but the name too. Whatever it is, it must be a hangover from before I started playing around.

    thanks for your input/ help on this one <img src=/S/thankyou.gif border=0 alt=thankyou width=40 height=15>

    Alan

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