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  1. #1
    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Is Recovery Console DOS?

    I understand we are supposed to be weaning off DOS...

    But as part of my NTFS/Virus travels, it certainly appears to me that all you are getting at the Recovery Console level is a (limited) DOS session...

    So why wouldn't I, if that is indeed the case, format my drive first with DOS 7/Win98, and then install Win2K, leaving the format etc. alone, thereby allowing full DOS (or 4Dos if that be your flavor) access to the files and drive?

    Seems to work...

    Is this also the case in WinXP? And if so, when are we REALLY going to have to say good bye to Ol Faithful?

    Regards,
    Chuck Billow
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    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    Chuck--

    Contexting the Recovery Console As a Tool in Windows 2000 and Windows XP

    I'm going to say this at the top. One of the most useful and grossly under-used repair tools for Windows XP and Windows 2000 is to run chkdsk /r from the recovery console to repair disk sectors. Part of it's because the vast majority of Windows users never heard of the Recovery Console--Recovery Room is as close as they get. Many that have and understand it well fail to use this excellent and very helpful feature.

    If you're asking what's with sitting at a command line console to fix Windows--you aren't the lone ranger. Many people remark on the simularity and analogies that when Windows has been broken (I won't even make the great pane pun) it has always been a primitive stuggle to develop repair solutions. You might want to take a look at the links that I put on Post 283092: Windows XP Thread 9 August 2003. You probably have much more perspective in this than I do if you've been watching Windows evolve since it started. A lot of the somewhat primitive and unattractive and unpredictable repair tools (but when they work they look like a million bucks) involved a tedious adding of drivers, scanners, and all kinds of components in working with some kind of boot disk that became an art and a study in patience.

    The Recovery Console is not a dos troubleshooting environment. The Resource kits for 2K and XP call it a "character-mode environment." It's analagous, and it has 13 dos commands and its own but you can't think of it as another dos program and it isn't. It has very limited access to some files and folders. It has access to the root directory of all volumes, to the Windows installation folder %systemroot%, it has access to the Recovery folder/subfolders when it's installed when it's installed as part of the Startup folder--not from CD execution, and can read files and folders on removable media. Try to access anything else, and you'll be denied. Sometimes you can get certain things done from the CD's Recovery Console that you can't with the installed RC, but you sure want it to be a boot option for obvious reasons. Plus believe it or not, some people lose their XP or Win 2K CD's. Also since you've been concentrating on NTFS--if you install the RC to your hard drive, and of course you should, you need to do it after you convert a FAT32 system to NTFS because converting to NTFS from FAT 32 will kill the RC's functioning.
    You can't use text editing tools, change Administrator passwords, or write to removable media. Documents and settings folders are not available from the RC, and it's restricted across both FAT32 and NTFS volumes.

    You can:

    *See the RC commands by typing in Help and many sites explain them--the Resource Kits do it best and most of the 2000 kit is on the web.
    *Repair a corrupt boot.ini, mbr with the RC. You can also make them worse.
    *Running chkdsk and where and how confuses many many people. If you run it from the RC, it is the most powerful and comprehensive, and Chkdsk /r from the RC implies both /f and /p. Chkdsk /p is only available from the RC--one more reason to run it from there always.
    *If Windows won't start because a file system is corrupted, you can use the COPY command to copy a file from the Win 2K or XP CD's I-386 folder to the appropriate folder in the %systemdrive%--and this works for both regular and compressed files. If the file exists within a .cab (cabinet) file, then use the EXPAND command instead.
    *You can use FIXBOOT comand to fix the partition's boot sector.
    *You can display all the available device drivers by running the LISTSVC command, and if a driver is preventing you from starting XP, you can work around this by disabling the offending driver by running the DISABLE servicename command and then can ENABLE it.

    SMBP

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    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    SMBP:

    OK... THAT was an informative read... particularly the chkdsk /r, since MS had been steering people away from/toward Scandisk for several years...

    But the question still remains (forgive my apparent mental glitch here): Isn't RC a subset (in most aspects) of DOS?

    As a matter of fact I have RC installed at bootup, trying to "get a grip", but it often seems as powerful, and certainly more flexible, to operate directly from DOS...

    What am I missing here? Assuming for the sake of this discussion that DOS access is NOT being phased out totally, shouldn't a "prudent" prep include the tool(s) necessary to directly access DOS?

    Because particularly in the info posted to the XP user's note, we seem a long way from not needing, let alone not having DOS access... The RC seems like a baby step toward same...

    ??

    Regards,
    Chuck
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    SMBP:

    Just ran chkdsk /r... didn't take long at all...

    Strange the RC looks like DOS, smells like... but is a GUI... so not only are 'they' separating the command(s) to particular environments, but the crossover...

    Why didn't/don't they just stay with DOS? It's what they are 'using' in point of fact anyway...

    So it ISN'T any kind of DOS... just the same commands, effects, and purpose... ah, the wonders of powerful minds...

    So I amend my question:

    Why wouldn't I want BOTH DOS and RC accessible at bootup in case of any problem?

    Regards,
    Chuck Billow
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    SMBP:

    BTW, is there any reason I would use the 'full' version of Diskeeper, as opposed to the 'free' one?

    Regards,
    Chuck Billow
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    Chuck--

    "BTW, is there any reason I would use the 'full' version of Diskeeper, as opposed to the 'free' one?"

    Yessireebob there is. I think they have discontinued Lite now as an option recently. I don't see it on their site anymore. I never used lite, and since I can't get a list of it's features, why don't you compare it to the table

    PC World Article

    And what you want to do to see for yourself is Download Diskeeper 7.0 Version 430 (newest) and try it for 30 days here:

    Comparison of Diskeeper full to Watered Down version made by Exec Soft (Same Company) in Win 2000)

    See Also:

    Diskeeper Trialware Downloads

    __________________________________________________ ____________________________


    Reply to Questions on Wide Range of Dos Emulation vs. Recovery Console Win 2K/XP
    The recovery console is not a subset of dos technically but if you want to think of it that way be my guest. And unless you get into a symantic quibble, dos has definitely not gone away and the more you know the better 2000, XP, Longhorn, Blackcomb user you can be depending on what you want to get done. Dos access is not being phased out totally at all--it's been enhanced, it has been expanded, it has been more capable, but it is emulated. The Recovery Console is not a gui tool, it is no where near a gui. It is a command line interface that helps you recover when you don't have access to a gui, or from which you can run the most effective chkdsk switch "chkdsk /r." The RC is not a baby step, it's a giant step in terms of it's power to fix, and is better in XP than 2000, and will get better with the new OS's to come. It's not a baby step to dos--dos emulation in 2000 and XP is more effective extensive use of dos commands. You would want both dos and the RC accessible in emergencies and they are.


    Reference Article:

    Technet: The Windows NT Command Shell (This article is missing some of the dos emulation enhancements added between NT and XP, but it is pretty detailed and shows the range of dos commands the RC does not have so it is far from the same as CMD or CMD.EXE that was introduced in Windows NT to manage the dos prompt or COMMAND.COM that was the name of the original dos program).

    The original dos program was called COMMAND.COM and most people became aware of it because of dos's tendancy to print "Cannot load Command.Com" and come to a screeching halt.
    This doesn't happen in Win 2000 or Win XP. CMD and COMMAND are called shells because they encase the OS. RC doesn't.

    O'Reilly has Windows 2000 Commands that is 110 pages and you can't write 110 pages of the limited 13 actual dos commands in the RC.

    The fact remains the Recovery Console is Not "a subset of dos" but anyone certainly understands your question is logical and why you would argue until the cows come home or whatever comes home where home is for you that it is. There are a number of simularities, and granted when you stop people in the street and do a street survey for middle America's computer literacy you can list it as one of the five command lines in a Windows NT kernel system 2000 and later in your suvey question answer. It is very powerful. It can fix you or wipe you out. It will not fix the MBR if your partitions are systemically bombed the way Roxio Go Back has the potential to do when it surreptitiously reconfigures one of the major components of the Windows bootstrap mechanism, the MBR. But it has limited access and as you know dos commands have much more extensive access.

    And under the 'ole Windows 2000 and Windows XP hoods, dos is not classic literal dos--it is [b]dos emulation.</u> I suspect that is very true of 2000. There are new commands, the interface is more spiffy, and has gui like tricks--you can scroll, and copy/paste, and color the background and text, and with one key you can make a double dos window or in seconds can fill your screen with a hundred dos windows if you want. The "new dos" has a large number of utilites for network and Internet file copying, troubleshooting, configuration, management. Windows maintainance can be done from the command line(s) and file and graphics conversion tools have command line access.

    SMBP

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    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    SMBP:

    So. no problem, I'll just add the RC to my list of toDo's, and keep my startup the way it is: showing Windows2K, the RC, and Windows 98 (DOS)...

    Maybe the old horse will convert as he gets more familiar... I'm just slow to change...

    And in reading the diff on Diskeeper, automation seems to be the biggest (only?) difference... which means I'll be able to postpone that expense for a bit...

    Thanks for all the info...

    Regards,
    Chuck
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    Probably so--I never used lite and I think they pulled it because they thought it was cutting into their sales. Exec Soft makes a big deal out of "Set it and Forget It." We have a lot of long threads on Diskeeper, and Perfect Disk, but I never use "Set it and Forget It" because although they say it runs in the background it actually gets in the way sometimes, no matter how much memory you buy. It's absolutely irrelevant to me, because I run it every night or every other on my drives and it takes a couple minutes total and does a great job manually and doesn't get in my way. The newer versions defrag your MFT from the gui, and if you think your page file is getting fragmented or use programs more inclined to fragment it--one reason given for moving your swap file to another drive than your OS(s) is it spares the page file from getting fragmented or getting fragmented as often--it rarely does as a rule for most people anyway. You can defrag the page file once in a while from boot and that only takes a few minutes--something like 6-8 for me--maybe less.

    Time hasn't been a remote factor for me in defragging or chkdsk any computer on any size hard drive since the old days of Windows ME for me, because doing them doesn't take me but a few minutes. One of the best things you can urge people to do is to get Diskeeper 7.0 or Perfect Disk. It'll be one of the best things you ever get them to do. If DK Lite is doing well for you, then there you go. You'll be quick to know if you want to go to DK 7.0 V230x or 8.0 when it comes out soon or PD.

    Your background and years of perspective with dos that I wish I had will serve you well as you work with Win 2K or future OS's. When I started I had people say to me "You don't need dos--there isn't dos--dos is gone--dos is old--dos is vestigial, don't worry about dos." These people meant you don't have to know dos to check on the PTA, go to Ebay, get your email, but some people who do those things and never had an IT job or hobby want to learn more and do more so some of them who like to learn about computers, software, ect. might just want to know stuff under the hood and as with anything knowledge usually ups your options.

    FWIW--I think people who wouldn't have touched a computer except for superficially bringing up a screen to do some simple task at their jobs are being pulled into learning because of the fast evolving and cheaper digital imaging photography market and as Martha will always keep saying "Thassa good thing." It has also gotten a lot of grand parents and parents who didn't have the internet, XBox Live, and PS2 around when they were in middle school to learn much more about computers sometimes from their kids.

    So you don't need to know much of dos, windows scripting, vb scripts and on to do a lot of things with these new flavors of Windows, and you didn't have to know any of them to use Windows 95 because I bump into people on machines every day who have it at their business and don't but it can bring up the insurance policy car model and generate a quote based on your MVR but it enriches things and your interest and experience in dos and stuff under the hood is only going to serve you well and make you a much better trouble-shooter and a user with a lot more options.

    SMBP

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    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    SMBP:

    "I think people who wouldn't have touched a computer except for superficially bringing up a screen to do some simple task at their jobs are being pulled into learning ..."

    THAT'S the truth...

    "Theoretically", you could always make a case for why one person needs a computer, or needs an upgrade, or needs the latest... but if *they* don't want it, and by "want" I am including the *desire to learn*, it is going to end up a waste of time and money, and whoever first suggested it ought to duck, or write off a former friendship or...

    Me? I learned EVERYTHING I do know (not that much) in one of two scenarios: companies doing conversions (my first was in 1977, switching from an IBM Series 3 to an HP mini), or out of total necessity (a resume in the '80's to get the next job)...

    As it happens, I was/am hooked on two levels: I really *like* computers and all that comes with them, AND I like thorough solutions and reviews of same. So, I find myself willing to install NTFS, then uninstall, install Win2K about 6 times (so far) in order to get the install the way I want it, and more importantly, to watch the steps of a process I figured out down the road -- like the formatting *before* Win2K install, with and without system files, as opposed to letting Win2K do it all...

    I for one ALWAYS use a custom install so I can watch the steps...

    I saw a post for the Google Search toolbar... but I won't use it, because it's a web install...

    Well, each to his own, I 'pose...

    I do think you're right: regular maintenance, including defragging and registry review, tend to make for a lot happier camper in the end...

    Regards,
    Chuck Billow
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

  10. #10
    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    BTW, if you're looking for DK lite, let me know...

    Regards,
    Chuck
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    I have Diskeeper 7.0 and it's been a good investment--it constantly pays for itself and if you want to see some very good papers and diagrams on basic hard drive organization and file systems, drill their site under support. Many might have been written in '98 and '99 but they apply to now. There is also an extensive defrag manual there and the value of this stuff is that it shows clearly how defrag works, and more importantly drives are organized with information and windows components and the location of different sectors and how they are written to.

    SBMP

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    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    ya know, it's interesting: I've been using Norton for several years... and basically never had to worry too much. General maintenance as well as emergency issues could be handled.

    Ya know what happened when I tried to run Norton's Speed Disk on Win2K? I get an error message that Speed Disk was designed for Win2K... not WinNT!

    Where is it getting THAT information? SP-4?

    Anyway, I just ran Diskeeper... seems smoother... don't uderstand either why there's no choice(s) for file placement or order like there was when I ran it on Win98...

    Oh well...

    Regards,
    Chuck
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    Chuck--

    I understand the frustration of whacky out of context error messages, but I doubt seriously if Win 2K SP4 is causing that error--it could be--but probably some other conflict. Go over to Norton's KB--just hit tech support and then put in your version and hit the hyperlink at the very bottom of the page for Knowledge Base and see if you can scrape up anything in the Symantec KB's or some of their bulletins--search the KB first and then search their bulletins.

    SMBP

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    Uranium Lounger CWBillow's Avatar
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    Re: Is Recovery Console DOS?

    SMBP:

    Did that... it's in the works...

    Thanks,
    Chuck
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."

    ~ A(lan) A(lexander) Milne (1882-1956)- "House at Pooh Corner"

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