Space before / top of pg (Word XP)

[richardbarrett]

We are having trouble at the top of a page (usually have a hard page break, but not always) when Word ignores the space before which is set for the paragraph style. We have not checked any of the options under Tools|Options|Compatiility to suppress extra lines or space before following a page break or at the top of a page. But Word still does this.

Is there a way to force Word to recognize the space before in the paragraph formatting, or will we need to find a workaround?

Thanks,
Richard Barrett

[jscher2000]

I'm very much tempted to say "that's impossible" because unless you Suppress it, the "space before" white space should be there by default.

Now, there are situations in which paragraph formatting becomes confused around a manual page break. Rather than use Ctrl+Enter to insert a break, try adding it to the paragraph destined for the next page using Format>Paragraph...(second tab)>Page break before. Does that work any better?

[richardbarrett]

Actually, that is something that we've used when there is a page break. There's a little more to the story... this is a California pleading paper with the column of numbers along the left margin (placed in a text box in the header). The numbers and the Body Text style are exactly 24 pt. spacing. If a heading level style -- 12 pt. exact spacing to accomodate multi-lines at "single space" -- appears at the top of a page (even without a hard page break), it pushes up above the number 1 in the column, no longer aligning to suit our attorneys. Ctrl-0 should add 12 sp. before... and it does. But Word ignores it. If you manually add any amount of spacing, it is ignored.

The method you suggested does work, but it creates havoc when editing the previous page. (Not that the 12 sp. before is havoc-free.) I would have thought this was "impossible" as well, but when you add exact spacing to the mix, I think that's where the problem occurs.

Thanks, Richard

[jscher2000]

<P ID="edit" class=small>(Edited by jscher2000 on 15-Apr-04 11:51. )</P>Oh, this is a different problem. The "Exactly" setting has a different text baseline than the others. Please search here for "pleading" and you'll find a number of discussions of this problem. I think it's "all or nothing" to match the numbers. And anyway, the numbers didn't match when we ran pre-printed paper through the printers, so I'm not sure it's worth a lot of billable hours. (When I worked for the Federal courts in LA, our paper was printed haphazardly by not-so-highly-motivated prisoners. Try to match THAT with a macro. I had to rewrite it for almost every box. <img src=/S/laugh.gif border=0 alt=laugh width=15 height=15> )

Added: By the way, I can't replicate the problem precisely. Can you post a blank version of one of these documents so we can see how the text box is lined up?

[richardbarrett]

Thanks. I'll search for "pleading" and take a look. (I didn't think to search on that.... must have been too obvious.)

Having seen orders issued by the courts, I am aware that exact alignment of text to numbers is not something even they pay a lot of attention to. But when an attorney expects a secretary or word processor to make it happen, it doesn't much matter what anyone else thinks. We do succeed in making the documents look quite lovely.... but it takes fussing for this sort of thing. This was not a problem in Word 97. Ctrl-0 did the track every time.

I'm attaching a sample document. Thanks againi for your help.

[HansV]

Umm, I'm using Word 2002 (aka XP) SP-2. When I download your document, change the first paragraph on page 2 to Heading 1 style, the first line is flush with the top margin. But if I add 12 points before by pressing Ctrl+0, the space before is added. See screenshot (text boundaries are displayed so that you can see where the top margin is.)

[richardbarrett]

I apologize. I had fussed with that document and chamged compatibility to Word 97, which usually remedied the problem. Here's another document with compatibility set to Word 2002 (which we want). The text moves to page 2 without a hard page break. Heading 1 at the top of page 2 has 12 sp before, yet it does not drop. Remove and re-add the 12 sp before, and you'll see the para drop momentarily and then jump back.

I suppose I could change the top margin.... BUT secretaries like the idea of having the text a little too high when there's an even number of lines in the heading. Then the subsequent Body Text paragraph, at 24 pt., falls back in line with the column of numbers. I know.... we can't have everything. But the 12 pt. before should stick, no?

Thanks for your help. Again, I apologize for not reviewing the doc more carefully before posting.

Richard

[jscher2000]

I tried this with a new document and various formatting, and I get the identical suppression of "space before" after a soft page break regardless of compatbility settings, line height settings, etc. In other words, it appears to be a longstanding and more or less permanent feature of Word. The workarounds are imperfect at best:

1. <LI>Insert a blank normal paragraph before the heading and stop trying to use Space Before. (After all that training about styles!)
   
   <LI>Insert a page break before the heading (either manually or using Format>Paragraph...>Page break before). Makes editing a bit messier, but it's okay if you just do this as a clean-up step before going final.
   
   <LI>Insert a continuous section break before the heading. Could confuse macros and/or users with respect to the many places that sections come into play. From what I can tell, you can't add this to the style definition.

That's all that comes to mind. Sorry!

[Rajesh]

Could the solution lie in the Tools | Options | Compatibility option titled "Suppress extra line spacing at Top of Page" referred to in <post#=127655>post 127655</post#> or your old <post#=127386>post 127386</post#> ?

[Rajesh]

Or maybe <post#=278186>post 278186</post#> by Phil Rabichow?

[HansV]

Not that it helps, but in fact, Ctrl+0 does add/remove the 12 pt space before, but the margin adjusts itself dynamically to negate the effect of this. <img src=/S/crazy.gif border=0 alt=crazy width=15 height=15>

[richardbarrett]

You're right! And it IS crazy!! This does in fact help.... if only by way of explanation. Thank you.

Regards, Richard

[jscher2000]

Hi Rajesh, there are several different behaviors going on:

(1) Space Before, at the top of a new page: (A) if there's a soft (calculated by Word) page break, the space before on the new paragraph is suppressed automatically; ([img]/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif[/img] if there's a hard page break, it is not, but you can tick a compatibility option to suppress it;

(2) Extra Line Spacing in mid-paragraph (e.g., when you use Exactly 24pt), at the top of a new page: this only occurs when there is a soft page break, and by default the space is maintained, but you can tick a compatibility option to suppress it.

Then there's the "HTML auto-spacing" that can cause other problems, but I don't think that's relevant here.