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    Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    I'm having an unusual problem with a set of document which are CA pleadings. The documents themselves function correctly. Normal style is 12 pt. exact spacing, and most styles are based on that. We use 24 pt. exact spacing for Body Text style and other "double" space styles. We have the typical column of numbers along the left edge. The only thing that is unusual is the top margin, set at -0.83. A trainer taught us this "trick" and it has served us well.... it allows the vertical rule to go nearly edge to edge.

    The problem has to do with copying styles. The styles -- heading styles are the issue here -- themselves function as expected in the document, but when they are copied to another document, they become very messed up. As formatted, heading 1 as at the left margin and each subsequent level is indented .5". But when copied to another document (using the Organizer with the other document as the target document, i.e. the "open" document) the heading styles are either all aligned with the left margin, or indented .25" more than the previous level.

    I have re-built the template from nothing, and still get the same results. I have experience problems from time to time copying styles using the Organizer, but never to this degree. There is ALWAYS a problem albeit of one of two variations.

    Any idea about what might be causing this?

    Thanks,
    Richard Barrett

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Richard:
    While I don't have Word 2002, I believe it hasn't changed with respect to this issue. When it comes to pasting styles, Word uses these rules:

    1. Direct formatting is pasted.
    2. If the style has never been used in the target document, the pasted text & it's style is pasted. i.e. there should be no formatting changes.
    3. If the style has been used in the target document (& Heading 1-3 styles are ALWAYS used), then the pasted text takes on the style formatting of the target document's style.

    I would check the following, all of which can affect pasted text:

    1. Check your source document & make sure that you have no direct formatting that is carrying over. You can do this by selecting the text & pressing Ctrl+Q (removes direct paragraph formatting) & Ctrl+Spacebar (removes direct character formatting).

    2. Next, when you copy, you must also copy the styles that your heading is based on. If you base your heading style on normal, you must copy the normal style over. Copy the styles <font color=red>three times</font color=red>. This is necessary with based on styles, as styles are not copied in the order in which you might think. Therefore, styles that are "based on" must be copied after the base styles. It's easier to just copy everything three times.

    3. You don't mention whether some of these settings are because of Bullets & Numbering. These settings are contained in the registry & can cause problems if copying from one computer to another.

    4. Also, make sure that Tools/Templates & add-ins/Automatically update document styles is UNchecked.
    Hope this helps,

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Phil,

    Thanks for your reply. I've been copying to a blank document based on the normal template, as well as to blank document that has the same style list (although differently formatted). I've always copied twice when using the Organizer, but I've tried your suggested three times with no improvement.

    I've just created a new document based on the template in question. The I've used the Organizer to copy the styles from that same template.... in other words copying the identical set of styles into the document. I still end up with incorrect alingment: everything at the left margin instead of each level indented .5" beyond the previous level.

    In most instances, I've been copying ALL of the styles, not just the heading styles. If I'm copying into a document that is simlar (same style list), I've copied only the Heading styles, since they are based on Normal, which is the same as normal style in the document I'm copying from. The results are consistently wrong.

    As I mentioned, this started with an old template that had been heavily edited by several people over several months. So I built a new template from the groun up... same problem. The only thing the document have in common is the normal template on which they were based. That will be my next test.

    Thanks again,
    Richard

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Richard:
    Do you have numbering applied to any style? Could you attach a blank document from each of the templates, with an indication as to which is to be the source & which is to be the target? If you zip them, you could attach both at the same time.

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Phil, I was unable to access the site yesterday. Thanks for your help. I'm attaching a ZIP file with three documents. CA Styles.doc is the current document with the heading styles (outline numbered). There is also a blank document and a document called Old CA Styles.Doc. This latter document has an older version of the styles.

    When I copy the styles using Organizer from CA Styles.doc to either of the other two documents (Blank.doc and Old CA Styles.doc are the active document when I use Organizer), the styles do not copy correctly. If I use code (ActiveDocument.CopyStylesFromTemplate), I have better luck. Perhaps this is just an Organizer problem??

    Thanks again, Richard
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Richard, I like Phil's suggestion, that perhaps your 1/2" tab/indent settings were applied using direct formatting in your source document. If that is the case, then of course those settings would not be copied in the Organizer when you copy the styles. Did you check that out? Hope you'll post the solution when you find it.

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    No, there's definitely no direct formatting. Just to be sure I've done the Ctrl-Q and Ctrl-Spacebar test.... no change.

    I've had trouble with the Organizer before, especially when copying heading styles into a document for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time. That never seems to work, and I doubt that it's a good practice in the first place.

    Richard

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Phil,

    Interesting. I'll give this a test in Word 2000 when I get a chance. No, I'm not confusing the left margin. When I copy to a blank document, all levels have 0" indent. When I copy to Olt CA Styles.doc, the first is at 0", and each subsequent level is .25" further indented than the previous. In the original doc, it's .5" difference. This document is something I worked on for a client, and they have experienced the same trouble in their offices.

    Thanks again for your help. Richard

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Richard:
    Well, I could find no problem with copying the styles. I have Word 2000.

    I used CA Styles.doc as the source document. The heading styles in it were identical with Old CA Styles.doc. I copied from CA Styles.doc, but there was no change. I also copied all styles from CA Styles.doc to your blank doc. Again, the heading styles came out identically. I did notice that your normal style was defined as exactly 12 point in one document & single in the others, but this caused no problems. I did have to attach the normal template to Old CA Styles.doc before the Organizer would work, but that's because it was looking for a non existent template (on my computer).

    When I right clicked on a heading style & went to Bullets & Numbering..., the dialog box opened showing the outline tab & the lower right box in all 3 documents. While it doesn't have to be the lower right, the fact that the same list template was being used in all documents means it copied over.

    I wonder if there is a setting in Word 2002 that changes the behavior.

    Added: looking at the documents, I'm wondering if you're confusing the identation with the margin. The margin settings on your blank document are different, but the identation is measured from your margin. See if the attached documents show the same heading styles when you open them.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Richard, in your target document, do you have Tools/Templates & add-ins/Automatically update document styles turned on, by any chance? If so, you should uncheck this option.

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Phil,

    No, I don't have that checked.

    I've fussed some more this morning, always starting with Blank Document.doc which I sent you. I figured that would give me a consistent starting point each time. I opened that document, and used the Organizer to copy all of the styles from CA Styles.doc into it. If I first add six paragraphs, with heading levels 1 - 6 applied to them, I get better resulsts than if I have nothing in the document, and create six paragraphs with heaving levels 1 - 6 applied AFTER copying the styles. The results are better in the second instance.... paragraphs with styles applied alread in the document. In this "better" case, alignment/indent is pretty good: levels 2 and 3 are aligned the same (number at .5, text at 1), and levels 4, 5, 6 and (like level 3) .5 off. If I go through the steps of modifying level 3, just going into the number format dialog and then backing out (with OK, not Cancel) sets everything right. If I do the same on level 2, things get worse... level 1 moves to minus .5, and the others fall into line with that.

    I also meant to mention that the test documents you sent back to me look fine. I don't have Word 2000 on a PC any longer, but I can install it quickly. Perhaps doing this will give me some insight.

    When I copy the styles into a new document (Ctrl-N), I see that I have better results if I first check the matching compatability settings. The documents use a "Custom" compatability because we need to check "Suppress extra line space at top of page" and "Suppress Space Before after page break or column break" on these particular documents because of the exact (24 pt) line spacing for Body Text, and 12 pt exact spacing with 12 pt Space Before for the heading syltes. Checking this generally (unfortunately, there's not much consistency) is more likely to give me good (though not perfect) results. Without checking this, I can expect inferior results.

    The bottom line appears to be that the Organizer is not doing its job correctly. I've checked and re-checked the validity of the syltes, and I've started from scratch building the styles anew in a blank document based on a generic normal template. I think I mentioned that if I use VBA code (ActiveDocument.CopyStylesFromTemplate) to copy the styles, I have perfect results almost 100% of the time. Users can't do this directly, but we have a wa for them to save and re-use styles that effectively utilizes this code, so there's a way to give them what they need.

    If my results were consistent, I'd be more likely to think this was something in the styles. But since they are so hit-or-miss, I'm comfortable blaming the Organizer!

    I appreciate your help. If you think of anything else, I'd be glad to hear it.
    Richard

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Richard:
    Boy, do I feel stupid! <img src=/S/bash.gif border=0 alt=bash width=35 height=39> You're absolutely right about the Organizer. See
    The indent and the tab settings change when you copy a numbered or a bulleted style by using the Organizer in Word 2002 & obtain SP-3.

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Thank you so much. Now this nonsense makes sense! I don't know anyone who has installed SP-3.... the initial word was that it was a bit buggy, and then I didn't hear any more about it.

    Thanks again.
    Richard

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    Hi Phil,

    I didn't read the KB article too carefully. I just downloaded SP3 and applied it.... and still experienced the problem. A careful re-reading of the KB article makes it clear that SP3 is not the solution.... it's the pre-requisite before applying a post-SP3 hot fix. The hot fix does not seem to be available to humble folks such as myself. The article also says that the hot fix may be given further testing, and it's recommended that we wait for the next service pack.

    Thanks again for your help!
    Richard

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    Re: Copying Heading Styles (Word 2002)

    I think you may still be misreading it. It specifies that this fix doesn't fix the built-in styles - which the Heading series belong to.

    "Note This hotfix corrects only the problem with user-defined names, not the problem with built-in styles."

    Either way, you're up the creek without a paddle - but MS do know about the problem so maybe one day they will fix it.
    Andrew Lockton, Chrysalis Design, Melbourne Australia

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