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    NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003, XP)

    I need some urgent EXPERT help. I work in a law firm. Many years ago, I formatted all of their templates and put them into a document building program called HotDocs. Since that time, every new attorney who has come to work in our office has randomly decided to start their own system such as using old client documents to create new client documents. AAUUGH!! BAD ATTORNEY, BAD, BAD!!

    My current problem is that the latest attorney is developing a document out of the office. When he sends the document here, the numbering shows up on some computers but not others. Most of the computers here are using Office 2003 or XP but I think the originator may be using an older version.

    I have told the attorneys that the styles are conflicting. The attorneys charge hundreds of dollars per hour but can

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003, XP)

    Hi Shelley. Just a guess, but maybe what's getting pasted in has some improperly formatted hidden paragraph marks. Those who can see the numbers likely have their view options set to be able to see the hidden text.

    You may try to fix them by doing a replace of paragraph marks which are formatted with the hidden font for nothing. Word will apply the style from the lead-in or topic sentence on the collapsed paragraphs, then one could insert style separators where you need them to break and apply a proper style to the balance of the paragraphs. That can be very time consuming.

    Another alternative is to place your cursor in the numbered portion and go to Format / Bullets and Numbering. Word should open to the proper tab (numbered or outline numbered as appropriate). Do not change the selected list but just click on Customize / Font and remove the "hidden" option (assuming it's marked).

    These are shots in the dark, but possibilities. I hope this helps.
    Karen

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003, XP)

    I have to leave for the day but I am going to try your suggestions tomorrow. Don't worry, everything I've tried have been shots in the dark too! Thanks!

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    Super Moderator jscher2000's Avatar
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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003

    You could try superimposing your style definitions on the document, but this assumes they used the correct style names and didn't mess up the list numbering galleries (a thing I know little about and use even less). The fastest way would be to use the Organizer's Styles tab and overwrite the document's style definitions with the same-named styles from the source template or document. Might want to work on a backup for that, in case the numbering truly goes haywire.

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003

    I took a look at the post from Stephanie Krieger. I think there is misinformation in that article, so I would treat it with caution. Following some of her steps will cause the same list to be part of different List Templates. And she says to never apply numbering by going through the Style/Modify/Format/Numbering dialog box & that is simply wrong!

    By the way, I wasn't aware that Charles Kenyon was a Word MVP. I looked under the MVP site & couldn't find his name listed.

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003

    Thanks for all the help. It looks like the attorney fixed the document. I saw an updated version of the file that is working but he apparently did exactly what I was going to do an cleaned up the styles. Hmm, I get paid a fairly low hourly rate...how much does an attorney get paid? What they do thinking they are saving themselves money just totally amazes me!

    KB MacKenzie it's definitely not hidden text. I checked that out. But thanks.

    jscher2000 I'm going to keep that info and try it in the future but I think the problem is that my old documents used automatic numbering. Now they are using a legal numbering field which easily updates. The only problem is that it is not part of the style so it needs to be cut & pasted into the paragraph and you cannot cross-reference those paragraph numbers. I think in this problem document there was a little of both (numbering & the numbered field) going on. So I don't think that since those numbers are even part of the style that it could be corrected using the styles.

    Eowyn, thanks for the compliment! I will look into a copy of Word 2003 or XP for Law Firms. I never used WordPerfect but apparently it had better legal document formatting abilities. So any source that has legal doc formatting info would be helpful although the attorneys are cheap and I am reluctant to spend money to give them any more info when all they do is argue with me about my methods.

    Phil Rabichow, thanks for checking out the source. I glanced at it too. I actually don't use Style/Modify/Format/Numbering dialog box anyway. Although I agree with you, I wouldn't say you could NEVER use it. Actually maybe I am hard-headed but I really liked the older versions of Word. I could update a paragraph perform all the formatting and numbering that I wanted then click in the styles box and say UPDATE THE STYLE or MODIFY STYLE TO MATCH PARAGRAPH (or something like that) in the dialog box that popped up. This was so much simpler than XP and the new versions of Word.

    Thanks everyone!

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003

    You are facing an insoluable problem, unless you can train your flock to follow the rules for creating documents.

    One way to do this is to develop a set of macros that ease the task of following the rules.
    Of course training the flocke to use such macros is difficult.

    Some macros can police documents and force changes ob closing/saving documents.

    But I doubt that your clients will be happy paying attorneys to adhere to your rules, that's not exactly what they care about, n'est-ce pas?

    Regarding the Word for Law Firms book. I've not looked at recent editions, but I did not think that it was any more useful than a book, say. "Word for Right-handed Folkes" or "Word for Left-handed Folkes".

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003, XP)

    <P ID="edit" class=small>(Edited by Eowyn on 05-Nov-04 19:58. Fixed my error. Charles clearly states he is NOT a Word MVP in the introduction to his FAQ)</P>I feel your pain, and want to believe in your theory that with enough documentation, the lawyer will shut up and take the advice of an expert like yourself.

    Do you own a copy of the Payne Group's Word 2002 for Law Firms? It has been revised often enough that it should be an authoritative source to cite. I do not recall what particular guidance it has on styles and numbering. Charles Kenyon, [i[(while not)[/i] a Word MVP, is a keeper of a Word FAQ, which has a section about legal numbering and troubleshooting HERE. Here's another FAQ. And while I don't agree with her premise, Stephanie Kreiger has a post about numbering that may bolster your argument.

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003, XP)

    Shelley

    I am not a lawyer, I am a surgeon working in the National Health Service in the UK. I do write a number of legal reports. I have always tried to develop a template that includes automatic numbering and has appropriate margins. Not very successfully though!

    Would you feel able to share your template with me. You can email me at stirwin@surgeon dot dnet dot co dot uk (replacing the dots of course, no spaces).

    Terry
    www.perfectmedicalpresentations.com

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    5 Star Lounger kmurdock's Avatar
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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003

    Hi Shelley,

    I have worked in and with law firms for quite a while and numbering is one of the biggest issues there is. When Word 97 came out I did a certain amount of work with Microsoft through my law firm when some of our documents started getting flakey paragraph numbering.

    The first thing to know is that you cannot reliably save a number scheme in a template. Numbering is a property only of a document. The style will "know" it is linked to a number, but the form the number takes might or might not look right when the document is created or even opened.

    Numbering is more a function of the List Template object, which is actually specific to your workstation and only linked to a style. The List Template object comes with eight default List Templates (including None). You should think of it as a kind of temp file, too, as it displays the custom numbering of any document. These alterations are somewhat "sticky" as they will display even when the document that put them there is no longer in memory. An individual List Template can even become corrupted and can be fixed by choosing it on the Bullets and Numbering dialog and clicking the Reset button.

    The one thing I know for sure is that while it's possible to apply numbering a bunch of different ways, you really *must* apply outline numbering in a very specific way. With your cursor on the first style of your scheme (I will use Heading 1 in my example), click Styles>Modify>Format>Numbering. Customize the number however you like. BUT DO NOT exit the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog. Instead, move to the second level (upper left of the dialog) and edit the next number. This guarantees that all levels of your style and numbering scheme will refer to the SAME List Template.

    Most important of all (and here's where good numbering goes bad), when you decide to change the way the number in a numbered paragraph looks, say Heading 4, GO BACK TO HEADING 1 before invoking Styles>Modify>Format>Numbering. Change to level 4 on the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog. Otherwise, you risk the likelihood that Word will associate Heading 4/Level 4 with a different List Template. Then Heading 1, 2 and 3 are in accord, but Heading 4 is marching to the beat of a different List Template. Word does its best to keep your numbering straight, but it can only do so much. Law firms really put numbered paragraphs through their paces, so you can get some very unpredictable results.

    As far as your BAD attorneys go, every law firm has them. They are highly educated people and many of them don't want to let mere computer get the better of them. <img src=/S/grin.gif border=0 alt=grin width=15 height=15> You might try remapping the keyboard so Ctrl-V inserts unformatted text... Put the native Ctrl-V mapping somewhere else so they have to think about it before using it.

    You might also be able to write some macros that can straighten out your bad, bad numbering... Then nobody's valuable time will be wasted.

    Hope some of this helps...
    Kim

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    Re: NEED EXPERT WORD HELP Styles & Numbering (2003

    Kim, you are great. You are basically supporting what I've told the attorneys already so I'll forward PART of your message to them. I'll keep the other part of the message just for my satisfaction!! <img src=/S/smile.gif border=0 alt=smile width=15 height=15> And the keyboard idea is great! I was considering adding the Paste Special button to the toolbar but the keyboard combo would be even better. Sometimes I just have to stop being mad and just fix it before they realize what happened. Although I don't think they know what CTRL-V is.

    As far as writing the macros goes, I haven't wasted any time on that. I converted all of our documents to the document building program HotDocs by Capsoft. I love that program. I customized our Access database and linked the db to HotDocs for automatic fill in of client info. It takes less than a minute to build a 50 page Will. Then a new attorney started to use a different system, then another attorney used another system and I finally gave up the fight. They have multiple document folders and about 6 versions of every document master but that doesn't matter because they usually build their new client documents from OLD client documents. I have told them that I don't want anything to do with the project if they are not going to follow the rules and the system. I can't be held responsible for documents that are built from documents outside of my directory. But they still come to me as if I should be able to fix everything. Well, all I have to say is Thank the good computer spirits that I get paid by the hour!!!

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