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  1. #1
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    Suggested Site management program?

    Suggestions please! <img src=/S/hairout.gif border=0 alt=hairout width=31 height=23>
    I need to find a site management program, to make it easier to maintain my website(S) (emphasis on that plural S). Right now I'm updating page by page. Ug. I have tried Internet Design Shop (crashes on large sites) and Lotus FastSite (what were they smoking?). I know enough about HTML to hand code (as I do now) but really really really prefer the big/quick stuff (placing tables, images, text) to be WYSIWYG, with the option of hand coding. I like the idea of one mega-file of the entire site, and the program creates the individual pages from that when uploaded. I have to pay for this out of my own empty pocket, so cost is a major factor.
    <font color=blue>Eric A. Spanitz</font color=blue>
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator jscher2000's Avatar
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    We use FrontPage 2000, which has its pros and cons. One of its worst features is that text copied from Office documents tends to be bulked up with unnecessary tags. Also, nested tables are hard to work with in WYSIWYG mode, and you have to put hand-coded HTML into special tags to avoid having FP clean it up on you. I could go on...

    Our consultants much prefer DreamWeaver from MacroMedia. I have not tried it, and don't know whether it offers the same feature set.

    I played with NetObjects Fusion once and it seemed powerful, but I haven't done any real work with it.

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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    Thanks for the suggestions. I want to stay away from FrontPage because of its extra code and non-netscape unfriendliness. You voiced the second vote for DreamWeaver....I'll have to check on that.
    <font color=blue>Eric A. Spanitz</font color=blue>
    Quality, Project, Management * Training * Consulting
    http://www.spanitz.com * http://www.synergest.com

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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    Go for Dreamweaver. It is universally acknowleged as the best.
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    Thanks. The votes seem to be in favor of Dreamweaver. I am comparing DW to Homesite. I don' t see the advantages that DW has over Homesite. What am I missing?
    <font color=blue>Eric A. Spanitz</font color=blue>
    Quality, Project, Management * Training * Consulting
    http://www.spanitz.com * http://www.synergest.com

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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    That's right! Homesite is the html editor component of Dreamweaver. If that's all you want then just get Homesite instead. It too is the very best in its field.
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    Super Moderator WebGenii's Avatar
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    The bumpf I'm reading from Dreamweaver seems to suggest that Homesite is a component of the program? <img src=/S/shrug.gif border=0 alt=shrug width=39 height=15>
    Nope - I phrased that wrong. It seems that Dreamweaver will work with Homesite and other external text editors.
    here's the quote from the help file:
    "Using external HTML editors
    You may want to use a text editor to hand-code large amounts of HTML, JavaScript, or VBScript. You can use any external text editor with Dreamweaver, including Notepad (bundled with Windows 95 and NT) or SimpleText (bundled with the Macintosh), BBEdit, HomeSite, vi, emacs, and TextPad. See Using an external text editor with Dreamweaver and Using BBEdit with Dreamweaver (Macintosh only).
    [b]Catharine Richardson (WebGenii)
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    Super Moderator WebGenii's Avatar
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    You can download a trial version of Dreamweaver from Macromedia and see how you like it.
    [b]Catharine Richardson (WebGenii)
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    ...and of Homesite. <img src=/S/grin.gif border=0 alt=grin width=15 height=15>
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    Super Moderator WebGenii's Avatar
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    "you have to put hand-coded HTML into special tags to avoid having FP clean it up on you"

    Can you give a specific example? One of the advantages of FP 2000 is that it should not change hand-coded HTML.


    ------------------WARNING INCOMING RANT!-------------
    Every program has its ups and downs. From my perspective - being pretty comfortable with FrontPage beta/97/98/2000 and having worked a bit with Dreamweaver. I'd say your point about WYSIWYG tables is fairly made (altho' on a side note, complex nested tables create havoc for those members of your audience with accessibility issues i.e. the blind, so perhaps the restrictions in the table approach reflect a design ethic rather than a programming flaw).
    The whole "extra" tag thing in office was supposed to aid in something called "round tripping" where everyone was going to store documents on their intranet and download/upload into their native applications as necessary. Well that whole idea fell flat - I haven't run into any our clients that are doing that. So all we are left with is the extra code. MS btw has a <A target="_blank" HREF=http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q291/3/25.ASP>Knowledge Base Article</A> on removing that excess code - I haven't tried it tho'.
    As for the Internet Explorer bias in FP. Yes, it is there. But I note that there seems to be an equivalent bias for Netscape in Dreamweaver (although we could probably debate its' strength).
    Where FP is really starting to shine is in its' tools for reporting and managing files so that a number of content developers can coordinate their efforts. I haven't found comparable features in Dreamweaver - although I see the seeds of the concept there.
    Remember that FP was always intended to be a non-programmers tool (although I argue with that philosophy - how can you make a successful web page without understanding HTML <img src=/S/crazy.gif border=0 alt=crazy width=15 height=15>). For more intensive developer tools MS always intended that the developer ramp up to tools like Visual InterDev (now it will be Visual Studio, I guess). And when I talk to serious web developers it always seems to me that they use a selection of tools. They are not relying on a single program to do everthing.
    Yah, I do like FP and I'm having fun playing with Dreamweaver too. But it seems to me that FP takes a lot of unfair hits. About 90% of the complaints I hear about FrontPage stem from a lack of understanding of: the program, HTML, the role of an ISP, web servers and Server Extensions. And that is MS's fault, because they've chosen to tell people that they don't need to bother educating themselves - that FrontPage will handle everything for them without effort. We know that that just isn't so regardless of the software <img src=/S/laugh.gif border=0 alt=laugh width=15 height=15>.

    ----------------RANT COMPLETE!------------------------
    [b]Catharine Richardson (WebGenii)
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  11. #11
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    ARG. Yeah, I saw that Dreamweaver could use HomeSite...that is part of my confusion...there must be something EXTRA that DW does...but I haven't found it.

    I have downloaded both trial versions. Looks like unless I figure out the advantages to DW, I'll stick with HomeSite... <img src=/S/cheers.gif border=0 alt=cheers width=30 height=16>
    <font color=blue>Eric A. Spanitz</font color=blue>
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  12. #12
    Super Moderator jscher2000's Avatar
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    Example? Happened a long time ago when I was creating context sensitive menus with ASP code, but I don't recall the exact situation. Now I try to remember to use the HTML component to insert code that I would find difficult to re-create.

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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    1. You have budget issues.
    2. You want to avoid proprietary code nonsense.

    --------------------

    Try both 1stPage and Html-kit. They are both freeware code editors with lots of automated editing but no proprietary code or superflous garbage that is inevitable when a wysiwyg program has to translate your edits into code.

    I went from HotDog (about $150) to HTML-kit (free and more stable), but tried and liked 1stPage. I can't remember where I got 1stPage, but it should be easy to search for and find. HTML-Kit can be downloaded from w3c.org. It has a lot of nice features, except wysiwyg preview but not wysiwyg edit. This is not notepad for editing, though. There are a lot of shortcut tools. It's just not wysiwyg.

  14. #14
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    Thanks for the input!!! <img src=/S/flatcat.gif border=0 alt=flatcat width=61 height=21>
    <font color=blue>Eric A. Spanitz</font color=blue>
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    Super Moderator WebGenii's Avatar
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    Re: Suggested Site management program?

    Interesting, I wonder if it doesn't recognize ASP <img src=/S/hmmn.gif border=0 alt=hmmn width=15 height=15>. I'll keep an eye out for the problem.
    [b]Catharine Richardson (WebGenii)
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