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  1. #16
    Administrator satrow's Avatar
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    Thanks, Pete.

    So although HDS compatibility lists Samsung NVMe SSDs as compatible, the M2 versions still need some work from the dev? Could you send him a test report, please? http://www.hdsentinel.com/compatibility_ssd.php

    Have you gone the full manual route and used Trimcheck yet?

  2. #17
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    @satrow: Yes, trimcheck says trim not enabled, and attempting to set it with fUtil changes nothing. At this point, I am clinging to the belief (misguidedly?) that the SAMSUNG Support desk technician was correct when he said "IF Samsung Magician reports Trim enabled, then it is".

    I will do as you say and report the situation to HDS.

    Cheers.
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  3. #18
    Administrator satrow's Avatar
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    I wouldn't trust Samsung's comments if Trimcheck fails to detect evidence

    I don't see much in the way of details listed on Samsung's support site about changes/bugfixes in their SSD software/firmware/drivers, not a good sign, imo. You've downloaded and installed the latest software, SamsungUpdate_2.2.8.35.ZIP, yes?

    You could also try to contact the Trimcheck author at his Blog: http://blog.thecybershadow.net/2012/...im-check-tool/

  4. #19
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    @satrow: I confirm I have the latest firmware and drivers installed. I have contacted the author on his blog and am standing by for a response.
    Last edited by petesmst; 2017-04-21 at 07:47.
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  5. #20
    Administrator satrow's Avatar
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    fsutil behavior set DisableDeleteNotify 0 is a System setting, it cannot/does not take into account the effect that a 'bad' controller/driver might have: http://www.hdsentinel.com/faq.php#trim

  6. #21
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    @RetiredGeek.

    The Trimcheck guide states: The command "fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify" will give you one of two results, either a 0 or a 1. A zero indicates that TRIM is enabled correctly, a one means that it is not.

    I think I am having a bad day and am therefore now thoroughly confused: Running "fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify" on my system SSD results in "0", but the next line in the Command Prompt windows states "DisableDeleteNotify is not currently set". (See screenshot)Screen Shot 04-21-17 at 02.49 PM.JPG

    Running the command "fsutil behavior set DisableDeleteNotify 0" to set trim changes absolutely nothing.

    I am now totally confused. Is trim WORKING or not?
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  7. #22
    Administrator satrow's Avatar
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    Try removing any Samsung startups using MSConfig or Autoruns, rebooting and then testing it again.

  8. #23
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    @satrow:
    @RetiredGeek:

    OK, I think I now understand this issue. In the image in post #21 above, note the line that commences with "ReSF ..."

    I found this on a Norton site:

    "NTFS is the current default file system for Windows 10. ReFS is a new file system which came out in 2012 but is not normally used for consumer PC's."

    So, it seems that the line in the post #21 image above commencing with "NTFS ..." refers to my NTFS system disk (the SSD in question), and it indicates that Trim is "0", in other words Trim is SET (but is it working: This requires "Trimcheck" to be run).

    The ReSF line is not applicable to my system.

    Problem solved! (As regards whether or not Trim is ENABLED, it seems).

    Of course, this does not explain why Trimcheck tells me Trim is NOT working (even after I use "fsutil ...SET") , whilst Samsung Magician says it is! (Perhaps Magician also only sets/checks ENABLED as apposed to actually working?)
    Last edited by petesmst; 2017-04-21 at 09:48. Reason: Corrected a few typos
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  9. #24
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    This whole TRIM, DEFRAG and OPTIMIZE question is pretty complicated. I found this (It's from 2014, but I am pretty sure it still applies, unless someone can provide evidence that things have changed):

    "Defrag will only run on your SSD if volsnap is turned on, and volsnap is turned on by System Restore as one needs the other"

    Source: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRea...ntYourSSD.aspx

    Another important extract from the above link is this:

    "In the old days, you would sometimes be told by power users to run this at the command line to see if TRIM was enabled for your SSD: "fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify". A zero result indicates it is.

    However, this stuff is handled by Windows today in 2014, and you can trust that it's "doing the right thing." Windows 7, along with 8 and 8.1 come with appropriate and intelligent defaults and you don't need to change them for optimal disk performance. This is also true with Server SKUs like Windows Server 2008R2 and later."


    So, it appears that we must manually optimize ("trim and defrag"), or set optimise to run on a schedule for an SSD if System Restore is not turned on.

    This is a paradox, since many posts here and elsewhere suggest that Restore is not needed if you regularly make complete system image backups to a separate (preferably removable external drive). Therefore, I deduce that if Trim is enabled, but System Restore is turned off, Trim will not actually be working. Please correct me if I am wrong here, as I do not wish to mislead any Loungers.
    Last edited by petesmst; 2017-04-21 at 10:20. Reason: Corretced typos
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  10. #25
    Administrator satrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petesmst View Post
    ... this does not explain why Trimcheck tells me Trim is NOT working (even after I use "fsutil ...SET") , whilst Samsung Magician says it is! (Perhaps Magician also only sets/checks ENABLED as apposed to actually working?)
    That's also my concern, after all a huge proportion of SSD articles completely rely on fsutil behavior set DisableDeleteNotify 0 as being definitive; I've owned 2 machines (Nvidia chipset/W7 and Intel chipset/W7+W10) where this was definitely not the case, manual intervention by way of reverting to stock MS SATA drivers was needed to allow Trim to function.

    Parts of the Hanselmann topic are now outdated, eg: update/upgrade your W10 to a more recent version and by the second bootup it's likely to have 'updated' drivers, it did to me with AU and the MS SATA drivers - to Intel drivers that didn't support Trim.

  11. #26
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    @satrow: Thanks. I am still wondering if the requirement for System Restore to be turned on still applies with Windows 10?
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  12. #27
    Gold Lounger wavy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petesmst View Post
    @RetiredGeek.

    I think I am having a bad day and am therefore now thoroughly confused: Running "fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify" on my system SSD results in "0", but the next line in the Command Prompt windows states "DisableDeleteNotify is not currently set". (See screenshot)Screen Shot 04-21-17 at 02.49 PM.JPG
    In logic and binary circuit lingo it is common to see a "1" indicate the "set" or "true" condition and a "0" indicate the opposite; so a zero indicates NOT SET i.e. DeleteNotify is NOT Disabled.
    Running the command "fsutil behavior set DisableDeleteNotify 0" to set trim changes absolutely nothing.

    I am now totally confused. Is trim WORKING or not?
    As for that I would likely go with NO. But it is ENABLED in the OS but while that may be a necessary condition for a WORKING Trim it is NOT sufficient. Trust the Trimtest, it is designed to resolve that question.
    Last edited by wavy; 2017-04-21 at 16:32.
    David

    Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

  13. #28
    Administrator satrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petesmst View Post
    @satrow: Thanks. I am still wondering if the requirement for System Restore to be turned on still applies with Windows 10?
    I'm not sure anyone outside the MS dev. team for that subsystem knows for sure, Pete.

  14. #29
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    @wavy: Noted, thanks!
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  15. #30
    5 Star Lounger petesmst's Avatar
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    @satrow:
    @RetiredGeek:

    Since you both tried to assist me with my Trim enabled/not enabled issue, this may interest you:

    I sent a test report to Hard Disk Sentinal (HDS) and also queried why HDS does not report the Trim status of my M.2 NVMe SSD. I have just received the following reply (the English is as received!). (The text in Red is my own doing)


    "To be honest, displaying the TRIM status is designed to work with SATA SSDs only,
    where there can be problem with TRIM at all.

    You may know, with fsutil we can check if the OS uses TRIM command at all,
    but it shows absolutely no info if the TRIM command would really "reach" the device
    or it may be blocked by the disk controller or its driver - which is a common situation
    for SATA SSDs.
    This is why Hard Disk Sentinel focused to verify and show TRIM status for these SSDs where
    there may be a problem - even if fsutil would show that TRIM is enabled.

    Please note that most other tools only checks fsutil and always show TRIM = working
    for SATA SSDs too, when it may be not working at all.



    However, with NVMe SSDs, things are different: due to design of the driver, TRIM
    should be always working - there is no similar situation - except if we really disable
    TRIM by fsutil.


    Generally fsutil always shows TRIM = enabled, even if there is no SSD in the system.
    Personally I see no reason and never saw situation when TRIM was disabled by the user
    (by using fsutil). And if we consider that it is enabled by the OS and the driver can't cause problems,
    then we can assume TRIM is always working for the NVMe SSD.

    This is why until now Hard Disk Sentinel did not display such information for this type
    of SSDs. But I completely understand and agree that
    - this information may be assuring (as it would confirm things are working as should)
    - if we see TRIM status for simpler/cheaper SATA SSDs, we may expect for NVMe SSDs too.
    - if fsutil may be used to really disable TRIM - the message should notify about it to change setting

    So the updated Hard Disk Sentinel version should display TRIM status: both if working
    and if not working (if we really disable by fsutil at the OS level. You may try - and perform
    a complete re-detect in Hard Disk Sentinel to show the changed TRIM status).


    So if you have some time, please try this version:
    (LINK DELETED BY Myself at HDS request)

    To use this version, please just completely close the current version by
    File -> Exit (or terminate in the task manager) and (without uninstallation) install this version
    to the same folder, where the previous installed.

    This way the new version will automatically use all statistics, settings, license,
    just should display this information too.

    I'd recommend to please use Report menu -> Send test report to developer option with the
    updated version in all cases.
    This way it is possible to examine the results, confirm if things are better - but if not, it
    would help in further development."


    They certainly make it clear that Trim being reported as ENABLED does NOT necessarily mean it is actually functioning!

    They have kindly provided my with a test update of the HDS software (asking me not to pass it on to anyone else as it is still in testing).

    Moderator: I wonder whether or not this post (#30) should perhaps be a new, stand-alone thread entitled : "Is TRIM functional on your SSD?"

    I have provided feedback here: https://windowssecrets.com/forums/sho...al-on-your-SSD
    Last edited by petesmst; 2017-04-24 at 08:40. Reason: Added colour to important text
    (My Setup: Custom built: 4.00GHz Intel Core i7-6700K CPU; MSI Z170A Gaming Carbon Mobo (Military Class V); Win 10 Pro (64 bit)-(UEFI-booted); 16GB RAM; 500GB SAMSUNG 960 EVO M.2 NVME SSD; 512GB SAMSUNG 850 PRO SSD; Seagate 2TB Barracuda SATA6G HDD; 2 X GeForceGTX 1070 8GB Graphics Card (SLI); Office 2016 Prof "Click to Run" (32-bit); Acronis TI 2017 Premium, Norton Internet Security, VMWare Workstation12 Pro). WD My Book 3 1TB USB External Backup Drive). Samsung 24" Curved HD Monitor.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to petesmst For This Useful Post:

    lumpy95 (2017-04-24),satrow (2017-04-24)

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